Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
2,500,000 members. Thank you!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-27-2023, 04:34 PM
 
12,514 posts, read 8,731,743 times
Reputation: 34276

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
That ignores the fact that in many STEM fields, the starting salary is decent, but does not increase much during your career, at least not for the typical employee.
I think you're either looking at a small data set or pay increases slow down for everyone as they settle into their preferred level of work. The job pyramid fits pretty much every field of work. Still, most STEM and related knowledge work will settle out higher on the overall scale than a great many other job types.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I think that K-12 STEM teachers push away students who are truly curious about STEM, and they just focus on the students who don't really care but just want to check a box on their transcript. Somebody like Neil deGrasse Tyson would have been happy to admit he did not know the answer to my question. But, unfortunately, people like him do not typically teach K-12 STEM.

Another example of pushing away real STEM people are teachers like my 8th grade math teacher, who wanted everything done her way, and gave 0 credit for any other way, and did not focus on understanding of the math. You can argue she did a good job of teaching discipline, but that's separate from STEM. Another example is the teachers who do things like 0 credit for the wrong number of significant figures, 0 credit for numbers rounded wrongly, or 0 credit for minor mis-spellings. Those are all very discouraging to students.
t.
This is one of the issues with STEM education in schools. I think the item below speaks to it:
One of the many problems that STEM education faces is the fact that students are not taught to think like a scientist from a young age.
Many college professors mention that their students were not taught how to think, and the students memorized all through high school.
The fact that students can memorize the textbooks and then get good enough grades to get into STEM programs in college suggests that the curriculum is lacking in keeping up with the way students should think.
--https://stemeducationguide.com/whats-wrong-with-stem-education/
It does imply that students are getting out of high school unprepared for college level work. Which relates to the rest of your comment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
I've also mentioned the problem that so many college STEM professors focus on weeding students out rather than teaching and encouraging them. But most on this forum seem to support that practice. Also, when girls are favored in K-12 school, they will run into that weedout professor in college who does not care when gender you are. Since their knowledge would be less than their K-12 grades suggest, I can see girls being disproportionately weeded out in college. Yet even the feminists on this forum seem to support weedout.
It may well have such an impact, but that goes back to inadequate preparation in school for the content and rigor of the college level material rather the weedout itself. If they are not prepared academically in middle and high school, then it's too late in college. They need to get remedial help elsewhere before attempting college level work.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-27-2023, 04:40 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
101,974 posts, read 106,470,034 times
Reputation: 115599
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001
it seems that astatine's half-life is too short for scientists to determine if it's diatomic or not. But of course my teacher could not just admit that.
He couldn't explain that it'shalf-life is too short to make that determination, because he didn't know. He covered up the blank spot in his knowledge base by yelling at you. Intimidation is a known tactic for a teacher covering up their ignorance. It happens a lot in cults, too.
Quote:
Another problem is that the attempts to target girls and women may be turning off real STEM people of both genders. I have heard that in order to encourage girls, many K-12 science teachers grade lab reports based on how pretty they are rather than based on content. But that is just going to annoy and discourage real STEM people of both genders.
I can't believe you seriously believe this hearsay. This is such obvious garbage, you should have known better. For one thing, most highschool girls aren't pretty enough to get a good grade just for that. That's ridiculous; just more stereotyping of girls from the whiner brigade. And secondly, the idea that all highschool science teachers use the same strategy to encourage girls in science is absurd. This smacks of the typical incel conspiracy theory. Use your common sense, mitsguy. If science teachers actually used that strategy, it would lead to most of the girls getting poor grades anyway, worse than the guys. Of all the dumbest things I've ever read on C-D, this one rates at the top.

Sorry, but I know you have more brains than to believe this. Please use them.

Last edited by Ruth4Truth; 11-27-2023 at 05:05 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2023, 05:05 PM
 
Location: NMB, SC
41,122 posts, read 16,859,513 times
Reputation: 33887
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
He couldn't explain that it'shalf-life is too short to make that determination, because he didn't know. He covered up the blank spot in his knowledge base by yelling at you. Intimidation is a known tactic for a teacher covering up their ignorance. It happens a lot in cults, too.
I can't believe you seriously believe this hearsay. This is such obvious garbage, you should have known better. For one thing, most highschool girls aren't pretty enough to get a good grade just for that. That's ridiculous. And secondly, the idea that all highschool science teachers use the same strategy to encourage girls in science is absurd. This smacks of the typical incel conspiracy theory. Use your common sense, mitsguy. If science teachers actually used that strategy, it would lead to most of the girls getting poor grades anyway, worse than the guys. Of all the dumbest things I've ever read on C-D, this one rates at the top.

Sorry, but I know you have more brains than to believe this. Please use them.
That poster meant pretty reports, not them being physically pretty.

I collected resumes at college job fairs that you would not believe.
Applying for software engineer jobs.
Pink paper, smiley emotes, flowers on the margins, etc. from several women.
Were they not taught how to put together a professional resume ?

And this wasn't a rinky dink college....UT in Austin Tx.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2023, 05:08 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
101,974 posts, read 106,470,034 times
Reputation: 115599
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
That poster meant pretty reports, not them being physically pretty.

I collected resumes at college job fairs that you would not believe.
Applying for software engineer jobs.
Pink paper, smiley emotes, flowers on the margins, etc. from several women.
Were they not taught how to put together a professional resume ?

And this wasn't a rinky dink college....UT in Austin Tx.
WHAT???!?!!! Even more ridiculous. And outlandish, to boot! And as if someone would grade a report based on its fluff factor! Those girls are in desperate need of a reality check. How they managed to graduate from HS without getting one, I can't fathom. But just because they prettify their documents doesn't mean their teachers were dumb enough to reward them for that with higher grades than they deserved.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2023, 05:10 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
12,879 posts, read 7,249,442 times
Reputation: 9623
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
Were they not taught how to put together a professional resume ?

And this wasn't a rinky dink college....UT in Austin Tx.
Just shows that there will always be difference between sexes [regardless of biological sex].
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2023, 07:45 PM
 
12,514 posts, read 8,731,743 times
Reputation: 34276
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMSRetired View Post
That poster meant pretty reports, not them being physically pretty.

I collected resumes at college job fairs that you would not believe.
Applying for software engineer jobs.
Pink paper, smiley emotes, flowers on the margins, etc. from several women.
Were they not taught how to put together a professional resume ?

And this wasn't a rinky dink college....UT in Austin Tx.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
WHAT???!?!!! Even more ridiculous. And outlandish, to boot! And as if someone would grade a report based on its fluff factor! Those girls are in desperate need of a reality check. How they managed to graduate from HS without getting one, I can't fathom. But just because they prettify their documents doesn't mean their teachers were dumb enough to reward them for that with higher grades than they deserved.
I'm not surprised by TMSRetired's comment. I've talked about this before, both in the education forum and the work forum. It's something I've observed when hiring the last 10-15 years. And don't worry too much, it's not just women but men as well that can't put together a decent resume. It's not totally their fault; I've seen advice put out by recruiters and resume "experts" that made me cringe. A lot of that advice had to do with making your resume stand out from the stack by using color, gimmicks, and other things to "catch the eye" of the person reading the resume. In the last round of hiring I did before retirement; I could actually tell some of the universities by the style of the resume. Not in a good way. Some of the universities do much better at prepping students for the first job than others and I could see that in the resumes from those schools as well as in the interviews themselves.

Back on the topic of grading reports on the fluff factor, from what I saw with my kids in school, once again, it isn't just girls but boys whose work was being graded on form and style rather than content. It was really surprising the things I was having to teach new hires about writing for work rather than for a teacher.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2023, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Was Midvalley Oregon; Now Eastside Seattle area
12,879 posts, read 7,249,442 times
Reputation: 9623
We can't wait much longer to have grandkid(s) at ages 73/76. We didn't have ours until age 35/38. Our DIL is 32. Our DS is 38.
Any case, I would be mildly interested to see how of local school district does in STEM with its highly educated parents.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-27-2023, 10:49 PM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,497 posts, read 57,246,361 times
Reputation: 45746
Quote:
Originally Posted by leastprime View Post
... I would be mildly interested to see how of local school district does in STEM with its highly educated parents.
WA publics do pretty well in STEM, because of more higher educated parents and proximity of companies and technology and medical + lots of intellectual immigrants.

The benefit of WA for STEM focus is FREE COLLEGE instead of warming a chair in HS. (since 1993)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Running_Start


The incentive usually comes from home, or being exposed to interests that perk, or challenge students to aspire.

That is still the 'norm' in some cultures (but not the USA, more of an exception the last few decades)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2023, 07:10 AM
 
403 posts, read 219,726 times
Reputation: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsguy2001 View Post
Yes, but children do need to learn the full implication of their major and career choices. It’s not just about what will interest them academically for 4 years, but about what lifestyle they can expect. Somebody who chooses to major in art history might not have as secure a lifestyle as some other majors. Some careers will involve long hours. Some will involve the need to travel frequently and at a moment’s notice. Some will require having a certain image. Some will involve the need to frequently relocate. Some will require the need to be unemployed for a while. Some willl require a life of poverty. But people need to learn those realities before choosing a major. That’s one reason why I’ve said maybe people need to work for a few years before going to college. If nothing else, you can decide if the lifestyles of your superiors would be acceptable to you or not.
To the bolded... work at what?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-28-2023, 07:39 AM
 
Location: Sunnybrook Farm
4,110 posts, read 2,323,024 times
Reputation: 11966
Well, I didn't read the whole thread up to now, but anyone who's been in the US culture the last few decades and is an engineer, knows about engineer-hating. We're constantly derided and characterized as dweeby nerdy out of touch guys ( and a few fat ugly girls) with no social skills, probably Aspergers if not downright autistic, can't speak about anything other than our narrow technical interests, either scrawny or overweight, obsessed with things like Dungeons and Dragons, etc., etc., etc., etc. And of course our subject matter is weird, incomprehensible, and generally dangerous, bad for the environment, probably going to spead disease and pollution, or at a minimum it's the evil engineers who designed that car that costs $1000 to fix something that should cost $100, or it's the evil engineers who designed your fridge that crapped out after only two years.

What kid, seeing this constant drumbeat of how unappealing as humans engineers and scientists are, would want to become one? Far better to aspire to be a rapper, influencer, or pro athlete.

At least one good thing comes out of it - old engineers like me, we're in demand amongst employers, because at base they need our skills and there aren't enough younguns coming along to fill in behind us. A threat of early retirement can work wonders.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top