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Old 04-14-2024, 10:26 AM
 
Location: WA
5,452 posts, read 7,749,413 times
Reputation: 8555

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tnff View Post
Every statement you've made is a political misrepresentation. There is no way to respond to you without getting into politics, which this forum bans.
As is your statement that freedom, justice, equal opportunity, equal rights and meritocracy are American values and ideals. The minute a HS student cracks an American history textbook they will find that in practice this isn't true. Or more accurately, that those things are platitudes that we quickly ignore whenever convenient. And their lived experience will confirm it. Sure they are ideals. The real hard questions are why are we not living up to them? And that question is inherently political.

In any event, these topics are what any good history curriculum will address. Take freedom. What does that term mean in an American context? What did it mean to the founders and to whom was the concept applied? Blacks? Indians? Women? the poor? What does freedom mean in a society that locks up a greater percentage of its population than any other society on earth? What does it mean when reproductive freedoms are being rolled back across the country?

Or take equality and equal opportunity. What does that term mean in an American context? Equality for who? Does a child growing up in a poor and under-resourced school district in the Rio Grande valley with a parade of substitute teachers because the district can't afford to pay enough to attract good teachers have the same equal opportunity to a good public education as one growing up in the posh environs Greenwich CT? If not why not? And would would it take to change that?

It is ridiculous to think that there is some apolitical way to teach children about freedom, justice, equal opportunity, equal rights and meritocracy. Because those concepts have been political for our entire history.
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Old 04-15-2024, 09:58 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,581 posts, read 28,687,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by texasdiver View Post
In any event, these topics are what any good history curriculum will address. Take freedom. What does that term mean in an American context? ...

Or take equality and equal opportunity. What does that term mean in an American context?
I'm talking mostly about freedom, equality and the other values as they are spelled out in our Constitution and founding documents:

Freedom of speech, religion, the press, assembly, the right to bear arms and due process, the equal protection clause, civil rights amendments, women's right to vote, etc.

And of course, equal opportunity to succeed according to the best of your ability and work ethic, regardless of your background.

Certainly, we should teach about the struggles of different people to become part of mainstream American culture and society. As well as the stories of immigrants who came to America from every corner of the world and achieved success beyond their wildest dreams.

The values that have stood the test of time in our society.
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Old 04-15-2024, 11:52 AM
 
1,499 posts, read 1,674,386 times
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The values may have stood the test of time, the practice of them has always fallen short, even today.

The pushing of this kind of thing always seems to come with the suggestion that the system works fine and there is equal opportunity for all - therefore poor people didn't work hard enough to improve their lives and that rich people earned everything they have. We all know it's not true, but it makes it easier to look down on people rather than help them, and justify not helping them because they don't deserve it. Education is one area which does well in combatting inequality, which is why some people attack it at every opportunity and seek to reduce access.
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Old 04-15-2024, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Sun City West, Arizona
50,855 posts, read 24,359,728 times
Reputation: 32978
Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmition View Post
The values may have stood the test of time, the practice of them has always fallen short, even today.

The pushing of this kind of thing always seems to come with the suggestion that the system works fine and there is equal opportunity for all - therefore poor people didn't work hard enough to improve their lives and that rich people earned everything they have. We all know it's not true, but it makes it easier to look down on people rather than help them, and justify not helping them because they don't deserve it. Education is one area which does well in combatting inequality, which is why some people attack it at every opportunity and seek to reduce access.
Yesterday, when I drove through Phoenix (on city streets) on the way to Tempe, I was actually thinking of this thread. There are some people here who CLEARLY want to give up on some groups of children. I never would, regardless of whether they are in primary, middle, or high school. On the other hand, so many of the homeless people that I saw yesterday -- and Phoenix city is full of them -- are probably beyond saving. But they are adults, not children.

I agree with you...this nation often falls short on many things.
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Old 04-16-2024, 12:07 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,581 posts, read 28,687,607 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Transmition View Post
The values may have stood the test of time, the practice of them has always fallen short, even today.

The pushing of this kind of thing always seems to come with the suggestion that the system works fine and there is equal opportunity for all - therefore poor people didn't work hard enough to improve their lives and that rich people earned everything they have. We all know it's not true, but it makes it easier to look down on people rather than help them, and justify not helping them because they don't deserve it. Education is one area which does well in combatting inequality, which is why some people attack it at every opportunity and seek to reduce access.
I'm curious about who is trying to reduce access to education.

School is mandatory in the United States until at least the age of 16.
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Old 04-17-2024, 09:27 AM
 
1,499 posts, read 1,674,386 times
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While school is mandatory, some districts don't enforce it. They ask the parents if the kids are getting schooled and if the parents say yes then that's it - not even a check to see if the child is alive, let alone that they can read at their grade level.

Every person or group who is pushing for any of the following is ultimately try to reduce access to a proper education
- bans on specific subjects or materials
- reducing/redistributing money for schools
- reduction in grants for less advantaged students
- usage of public money for charter/private schools
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Old 04-17-2024, 10:46 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,581 posts, read 28,687,607 times
Reputation: 25176
The bottom line is that nobody has been able to figure out how to close the gaps in academic or socioeconomic outcomes in the United States in spite of trying to do so for many decades.

This is a challenging problem to say the least.

Nordic countries have less inequality than the United States. But they are also much more homogeneous countries. Even so, it is not easy for them either.
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Old 04-17-2024, 10:47 AM
 
Location: WA
5,452 posts, read 7,749,413 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
I'm curious about who is trying to reduce access to education.

School is mandatory in the United States until at least the age of 16.
School might be mandatory, but what constitutes "school" is a completely wide open question these days.

In most states you can withdraw your children from school for "homeschooling" and that is last point that anyone tracks those children. They could be "unschooled" and basically just run wild at home. They can work on the family farm and "learn" that way. They can watch TV all day long and call that homeschooling. Or they can follow some sort of actual homeschooling curriculum. There really isn't any oversight at all in most states.

Similarly, there is very little oversight as to what constitutes a private school. That also can be just about anything in most states.
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Old 04-18-2024, 06:25 AM
 
Location: We_tside PNW (Columbia Gorge) / CO / SA TX / Thailand
34,742 posts, read 58,090,525 times
Reputation: 46231
Fortunately... "School" has zero relevance to obtaining a "Dream Job".

Unschooling opens the mind and doors,
and avails plenty of time to pursue
valuable interests and skills which may
lead someone to a 'dream job'.

It's not hard to find the success stories of those reaping the benefits of their "dream
job". Just ask them! (Be prepared to
hear very little about 'school', especially
the USA K-12 contribution to the success
of them obtaining their quest of a "Dream
Job"). Yet I can identify many who
reached their "Dream Job" in spite of, or
more often WITHOUT a traditional k-12
experience.

YMMV, we obviously travel in very
different circles.

Not sure why this thread migrates to K-12, or high wages, or prestige. None of which are elemental to a "Dream Job". It's quite obvious and painful that many have no clue of "dream jobs", and very well might be pursuing yet another evasive objective they have not understood or may not appreciate their arrival once they get there.

Sounds sadly familiar to the USA k-16-20 pursuit. "Okay, I arrived... Now what?"

Or worse (and more common)... "I don't like where I finally arrived"

Last edited by StealthRabbit; 04-18-2024 at 06:35 AM..
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Old 04-18-2024, 08:53 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
27,581 posts, read 28,687,607 times
Reputation: 25176
Quote:
Originally Posted by StealthRabbit View Post
Fortunately... "School" has zero relevance to obtaining a "Dream Job".
There is a significant amount of data going back decades that shows a strong correlation between educational attainment level and lifetime earnings in the United States.

I don’t know what your definition of a dream job is. However, a person who has a low educational attainment level is likely to face an uphill battle landing a well-paying job or career.

The odds are against them.
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