Fees charged for elective classes in public schools, your thoughts?

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by mimimomx3

I heartily disagree. Administration and 'support' positions and salaries are completely out of sync with classroom needs. We need more and better supported teachers, and far fewer and lower paid administrators. I also advocate a back to basics approach to public education- English, history, math, science and a foreign language. Art, music, PE and extras are on the students' personal time and parents' dime. I think we've diluted the curriculum and instructional day. Don't get me wrong- I LOVE the fine arts, but I don't think they should be a part of publically funded education.

So, you want to take an already failing system to your thinking and pay the people in charge LESS money to make it better ? You want to sell out the running of your district to the lowest bidder? How many administrators is "too many"? What do you think they should make?

The funny thing about your list is that foreign languages are an extra. Study after study has shown that music increases scores in other classes, especially math. What about all the kids that are great artist and not so good in math, automatically not give them anything to do in school that they can excel at because you don't think it is necessary? Times change as does the need for changes in education. If the schools followed your advice there would be NO kids prepared for the real world.

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by mimimomx3

Again- I think that arts, pe, sports, and so on are VERY important. I agree that they are useful for future career places... I also think that parents should have to pay for them.

I think you're somewhat confused. Art, music and PE are not extras, they are required parts of a high school curriculum in, as far as I know, all states. NCLB (No Child Left Behind) requires reporting on the availablilty of Art and Music as a component of a state certifying a school has made AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress). MD (and this could be a whole other thread) has been a national leader in the whole school accountability movement, pre-dating NCLB by a decade. At one time the idea was floated that students here would have to pass competency tests in Fine Arts (including music) and PE, along with the core courses. So, to refer to those courses as extras is incorrect.
Sports are different and could be cut, but at what cost (not monetary only)? When budgets are cut the sports survive and academics get cut. That's a fact of life in schools across the nation.

[mimimomx3]

Originally Posted by golfgal

So, you want to take an already failing system to your thinking and pay the people in charge LESS money to make it better ? You want to sell out the running of your district to the lowest bidder? How many administrators is "too many"? What do you think they should make?

The funny thing about your list is that foreign languages are an extra. Study after study has shown that music increases scores in other classes, especially math. What about all the kids that are great artist and not so good in math, automatically not give them anything to do in school that they can excel at because you don't think it is necessary? Times change as does the need for changes in education. If the schools followed your advice there would be NO kids prepared for the real world.

I want to pay teachers MORE. I want fewer administrators.

I think parents should pay for the extras. I think that public education, funded by taxpayers, should teach the basic academic skills, and hammer those home. I LOVE MUSIC, FOREIGN LANGUAGES, PE, SPORTS, SHOP, CHOIR, ORCHESTRA, CHILD CARE and all that. AND I would be happy to pay for some of those courses if my child were interested, and not pay for the courses they DIDNT want to take.

Sadly, I see fewer and fewer public school kids who are 'prepared for the real world' because they've spent so much time on a watered down curriculum.

[mimimomx3]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

I think you're somewhat confused. Art, music and PE are not extras, they are required parts of a high school curriculum in, as far as I know, all states. NCLB (No Child Left Behind) requires reporting on the availablilty of Art and Music as a component of a state certifying a school has made AYP (Adequate Yearly Progress). MD (and this could be a whole other thread) has been a national leader in the whole school accountability movement, pre-dating NCLB by a decade. At one time the idea was floated that students here would have to pass competency tests in Fine Arts (including music) and PE, along with the core courses. So, to refer to those courses as extras is incorrect.
Sports are different and could be cut, but at what cost (not monetary only)? When budgets are cut the sports survive and academics get cut. That's a fact of life in schools across the nation.

I know they're required. I disagree. I think it would improve US competitiveness if we moved away from such a 'soft' curriculum and into a more structured, focused academic curriculum. I would save the extras for after school and the weekend.

[golfgal]

Originally Posted by mimimomx3

I know they're required. I disagree. I think it would improve US competitiveness if we moved away from such a 'soft' curriculum and into a more structured, focused academic curriculum. I would save the extras for after school and the weekend.

What school do your kids go to where their day is so "soft"? Our kids have ONE hour of music every other day and PE on the other days. They have plenty of core academics. Also, everyone wants to show how much better other countries are academically but they fail to show how kids are tracked and we are stacking ALL of our students up against the best and the brightest of the other countries. If we only tracked our top 1% we would be right up there with the rest of the world.

Again, with your model you would actually make our schools fall farther behind. Again, how many administrators are enough? What are your solutions?

[mimimomx3]

Originally Posted by golfgal

What school do your kids go to where their day is so "soft"? Our kids have ONE hour of music every other day and PE on the other days. They have plenty of core academics. Also, everyone wants to show how much better other countries are academically but they fail to show how kids are tracked and we are stacking ALL of our students up against the best and the brightest of the other countries. If we only tracked our top 1% we would be right up there with the rest of the world.

Again, with your model you would actually make our schools fall farther behind. Again, how many administrators are enough? What are your solutions?

School hours should be 8-5. Core courses should be English, Math, Science, History and a foreign language. With one hour for lunch and recess, that leaves 7 hours of instruction. 1 hour for transitions, 6 hours. ~1 hour each subject. I doubt any child in public school gets that much time. My kids go to private school, and they manage to squeeze it in.

It could be anecdotal, but things like this: The World Is Wide: American Students Compared with Students in China and India (http://theworldiswide.blogspot.com/2008/02/american-students-compared-with.html - broken link)
make you stop and wonder why so many immigrant kids do so well....