Do public schools really NEED gifted and talented programs? (degrees, paddled, masters)

[flik_becky]

Originally Posted by jps-teacher

If you have one gifted daughter and you have two children, then unless your other child has brain damage or is a Downs Syndrome, you have two gifted children, one of whom you totally misunderstand.

I can relate to this last sentence! DD read at age three and was leaps and bounds ahead in mathmatics. DS #2, I discovered he could read just after his third birthday and who know how long he could read prior to that and had a very advanced sense of humor. DS #2 seemed average. He learned to read at age four and it is very possible that DS #2 learned to read before he did. He did not learn math on his his own. We thought he was average until the last year or so. Now we started Kindergarten with his this year and he's already through first grade math, reading Eragon, and his goal is to get to a higher grade level than his older sister in every subject. He is strong in vocabulary, emotional understanding of people and issues, the arts, writting and telling made up stories, music, and cooking. Cooking? The kid writes his own recipes and even knew on his own that he needs to add baking powder by the teaspoons and flour by the cups, ect. In fact, we used his recipe for his sister's birthday cake, a banana cake (what his sister wanted) and the only thing I had to point out to him was that the peanut butter icing was not a good idea with banana cake as it was for the last cake we had made.

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

Yes it does, however, appropriate is determined by the state board of education not the individual unless an IEP is involved and even then the curriculum is determined by the state. It just gets modified. I have yet to see a modification for a gifted child.

Spoken like a person living in isolation and with a fixation on law vs. morality.

Starting with the bolded section:

Iowa: “‘Gifted and talented children’ are those identified as possessing outstanding abilities who are capable of high performance. Gifted and talented children are children who require appropriate instruction and educational services commensurate with their abilities and needs beyond those provided by the regular school program.

Gifted and talented children include those children with demonstrated achievement or potential ability, or both, in any of the following areas or in combination:

1. General intellectual ability.
2. Creative thinking.
3. Leadership ability.
4. Visual or performing arts ability.
5. Specific ability aptitude.”
   
   (Iowa Code § 257.44)

Oklahoma: “‘Gifted and talented children’ means those children identified at the preschool, elementary and secondary levels as having demonstrated potential abilities of high performance capability and needed differentiated or accelerated education or services. For the purpose of this definition, ‘demonstrated abilities of high performance capability’ means those identified students who score in the top three percent (3%) on any national standardized test of intellectual ability. Said definition may also include students who excel in one or more of the following areas:
a.) creative thinking ability,
b.) leadership ability
c.) visual and performing arts ability, and
d.) specific academic ability.
A school district shall identify children in capability areas by means of multicriteria evaluation. Provided, with first and second grade level children, a local school district may utilize other evaluation mechanisms such as, but not limited to, teacher referrals in lieu of standardized testing measures;”
(Oklahoma Stat. title 70, § 1210.301)

Arizona: “‘Gifted child’ means a child who is of lawful school age, who due to superior intellect or advanced learning ability, or both, is not afforded an opportunity for otherwise attainable progress and development in regular classroom instruction and who needs special instruction or special ancillary services, or both, to achieve at levels commensurate with the child’s intellect and ability.”
(Arizona Rev. Stat. §15-761(8))

Georgia: “Gifted Student – a student who demonstrates a high degree of intellectual and/or creative ability(ies), exhibits an exceptionally high degree of motivation, and/or excels in specific academic fields, and who needs special instruction and/or special ancillary services to achieve at levels commensurate with his or her abilities.”
(Georgia Comp. R. & Regs. r. 160-4-2-.38)

How many do you need, Ivory?

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

The problem here is people are thinking the purpose of public education is to cater to the individual when it isn't.

We keep telling you it is about society's needs, not just the individual's. You keep insisting you know better, even though the evidence contradicts you.

But it has also been pointed out to you that the LAW claims that the schools are to meet each individual's right to a free and appropriate education. THE LAW, Ivory. Not us.

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

No I don't think a gifted child would be satisified with only a minimum education. Perhaps that's why they go well beyond that in spite of that being what is offered by the schools.

Again and again, you repeat this as if it is the truth. The facts have been handed to you. You ignore them - NOT ALL GIFTED CHILDREN "go well beyond the minimum."

Gifted students are as or more likely to drop out than the average student.

It's the truth.




(as Ivory may choose to not read my posting of the above statutes, if somebody else would care to copy and paste them, I would appreciate it.

[tribecavsbrowns]

What the hell does "dd" stand for? Do I even want to know?

Edit: Never mind, I looked it up. Wow. Grow up, people.

[buffy888]

Ivorytickler, you appear very interested in the education of your dd both in and out of school. Without gifted programs, what do you feel might happen for a child who is gifted but does not have interested nor "highly educated" parents such as your dd does... but rather has parents who are either not interested in the child's education or not capable of working with/expanding the horizons of the child outside of school? Do you believe that child will continue to flourish and be able to determine what s/he needs academically at all times just because of the giftedness?

[buffy888]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

What the hell does "dd" stand for? Do I even want to know?

dd = dear (or darling) daughter

[ccnj]

Gifted and Talented students, if they are truly G&T, are considered "exceptional population" the same as a special education student. Most kids that enter these programs though, are not really gifted, but rather higher performing than the other students in their class. Many parents push for their kids to be put in these programs because they want them with the top kids, yet academically they have no business being included in these programs.

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by buffy888

Ivorytickler, you appear very interested in the education of your dd both in and out of school. Without gifted programs, what do you feel might happen for a child who is gifted but does not have interested nor "highly educated" parents such as your dd does... but rather has parents who are either not interested in the child's education or not capable of working with/expanding the horizons of the child outside of school? Do you believe that child will continue to flourish and be able to determine what s/he needs academically at all times just because of the giftedness?

Yes, that is exactly what Ivory has expressed. Otherwise, clearly, the child is not "truly gifted." Okay, maybe not at all times, but overall.

[jps-teacher]

Originally Posted by ccnj

Gifted and Talented students, if they are truly G&T, are considered "exceptional population" the same as a special education student. Most kids that enter these programs though, are not really gifted, but rather higher performing than the other students in their class. Many parents push for their kids to be put in these programs because they want them with the top kids, yet academically they have no business being included in these programs.

Varies radically on the program.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

You are misreading my posts. I do believe that gifted results in ahead but that doesn't mean I think giftedness is amped up normal intelligence. The ahead part is easy to accomodate by moving kids up a grade.

And presumably when little Zoe or Ashok has blown through that in two months, we move him or her up again. How often do you expect the average school system to be okay with this? Moreover, do you really want a nine-year-old who still plays with Littlest Pet Shop in seventh grade, no matter how bright she is?

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

That also cures not challenging them on grade level. Yes, I think the gifted child should fill in the blanks if a jump leaves any. I just watched my dd do this when the school decided to jump her 5 weeks into the year. She did it all by herself. Ok, she did ask me to explain some algebra concepts she wasn't in class to learn but that's it.

Mmmm...yeah. Because Zoe, who is a gifted writer, can automatically figure out algebra. And presumably, also can figure out what to do when her classmates are discussing bjs in the practice rooms.

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

The purpose of school is to make sure kids hit all the markers. It's not to cater to an individual learning style.

Golly, just a few threads ago we were told it was for purposes of socialization.

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

If you need something beyond that, you need to go find it elsewhere.

Though not, heaven forfend, homeschool.

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

Yes, I think the gifted child needs to figure out how to fit the system not the system fit the gifted child. There are too few gifted children to spend our resources on them at the expense of other kids and if your school system isn't large enough to fill those gifted classes to capacity, that is, exactly, what you do.

And this is exactly why you should not teach gifted children.
Gifted kids are not simply slightly larger pegs who will fit nicely after you shave off the inconvenient bits.

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I don't know about other schools but from conversations with the honors teachers, honors classes are simply faster paced versions of the regular class in my school.
They're not something special beyond the faster pace (more like college). They're just faster. And the kids complain about this . They don't like the extra work. I'm not sure what they think an honors class should be but apparently, speeding up and covering more material isn't it. They're in for a rude awakening when they get to college and find they will have to do most of their learning on their own.

Then, with whatever respect due, those classes're being badly taught, and the kids are right. Honors classes should be-- and were, in the antediluvian period in which I was educated, and more recently, when my eldest children were in school-- taught in more depth. They should not simply be taught as if new land speed records are at stake.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by jps-teacher

If you have one gifted daughter and you have two children, then unless your other child has brain damage or is a Downs Syndrome, you have two gifted children, one of whom you totally misunderstand.

Not necessarily, Her other child may simply be neurotypical, like his or her mother. While giftedness tends to run in families, it is not always a package deal.