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Katiana- I have not posted in this thread, but I have read all the posts. I understood what you were saying. Sometimes when you try and clarify what you meant, people actually change the meaning.
Now, as for G/T (not directed towards Katiana). I think that the programs should exist. G/T is very similar to special education (or maybe even a form or it). Children with special needs deserve to have their needs met, regardless whether they are advanced or very behind.
Schools need honors programs, enrichment programs, and so forth. As was already stated, ALL kids would benefit from some of the "talented and gifted" programming described in this thread, e.g. small groups, experiential learning, independent study, etc.
My beef with "TAG" is that as has also been stated here, only about 2% of kids are actually gifted, yet in some schools, 40% are identified as "TAG" students. Also, the identification process misses some kids, and obviously includes some who don't belong there.
By high school, in large districts anyway, IB, AP, actual enrollment in college courses, etc, should take care of the needs of just about any student. I would certainly favor keeping those options. Middle schools do offer honors courses, again, sometimes the selection process is pretty bad (based on my own experiences). I don't know about elementary school. It's hard to have kids skip grades then, when a year's age difference means a lot more than in high school. The testing process is probably more imperfect there than in the later grades. Teachers seem to like kids who are outgoing and call attention to themselves, and brush off or ignore the quiet ones who may actually be better students. It's difficult, IMO, to come up with a system that actually works.
In our county all 3rd graders are tested on a nationally normed test. This takes any preferential treatment, or recognition, by teachers out of the picture. It is a very unbiased way to find those that actually need the program. They have to score in the 96 percentile and above to qualify. All middle schools do not offer accelerated classes. From my first hand experience the program is just as valid for elementary school as I imagine it would be for upper levels.
By high school, in large districts anyway, IB, AP, actual enrollment in college courses, etc, should take care of the needs of just about any student.
They should.
Here's the reality, though, at least for AP: for the past few years, the College Board has really been putting pressure on districts to increase AP enrollment, which they do because it makes them look good. The College Board gets lots of money for the kids who take the tests -- but the problem is, the ability level of the classes is going down.
In our district, for example, 56% of the students who took the AP test passed the test with a grade of 3 or better seven years ago. Today, it's 43%. What this means, in effect, is that fewer than half the kids in an AP class in our district really understand the material. This is past a crucial tipping point. At this point, what many AP teachers are doing is watering down.
This is a terrible disservice to gifted students for whom AP is about the only resort they have in high schools, which usually do nothing for gifted students.
They should.
Here's the reality, though, at least for AP: for the past few years, the College Board has really been putting pressure on districts to increase AP enrollment, which they do because it makes them look good. The College Board gets lots of money for the kids who take the tests -- but the problem is, the ability level of the classes is going down.
In our district, for example, 56% of the students who took the AP test passed the test with a grade of 3 or better seven years ago. Today, it's 43%. What this means, in effect, is that fewer than half the kids in an AP class in our district really understand the material. This is past a crucial tipping point. At this point, what many AP teachers are doing is watering down.
This is a terrible disservice to gifted students for whom AP is about the only resort they have in high schools, which usually do nothing for gifted students.
The same thing happens in TAG classes when 40% of students are identified as "gifted". It does make their parents happpy, though.
As for testing once in third grade (the post above yours), there are "late bloomers". One of my daughters, who is now a Dean's List student at the U of Colorado, didn't learn to read until third grade.
The same thing happens in TAG classes when 40% of students are identified as "gifted". It does make their parents happpy, though.
As for testing once in third grade (the post above yours), there are "late bloomers". One of my daughters, who is now a Dean's List student at the U of Colorado, didn't learn to read until third grade.
Not ALL TAG classes and G/T programs are run like that though. There ARE some out there that it takes scoring in the top 98% to even get CONSIDERED to be in the program. Even once in your not always "in" either. You MUST keep your grades up or you will be kicked out. There is no cut off on what grade one can get "kicked out" either. I've seen kids in middle school get "kicked out" half way thru a semester be it because of grades or discipline problems. I'm sure those parents are happy as well.
There are also some TAG and G/T programs that a student can enter at ANY grade. I've known some that did not start the program till 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th grade.
Not all G/T and TAG programs are alike. To try to say across the board w/ such a broad paint brush that they are ALL run like what YOU have personally seen is not accurate.
They should.
Here's the reality, though, at least for AP: for the past few years, the College Board has really been putting pressure on districts to increase AP enrollment, which they do because it makes them look good. The College Board gets lots of money for the kids who take the tests -- but the problem is, the ability level of the classes is going down.
In our district, for example, 56% of the students who took the AP test passed the test with a grade of 3 or better seven years ago. Today, it's 43%. What this means, in effect, is that fewer than half the kids in an AP class in our district really understand the material. This is past a crucial tipping point. At this point, what many AP teachers are doing is watering down.
This is a terrible disservice to gifted students for whom AP is about the only resort they have in high schools, which usually do nothing for gifted students.
EXACTLY! There are no requirements that must be met for a student to enroll in an AP course either, in most cases. With the AP program there is no set across the board curriculium that must be followed. Although they are trying to change that. Even in one district from one high school to the next the AP classes can vary. I've heard of way too many of the "watered down" A/P courses at some high schools.
When it comes to the IB program unless the student has been prepped to be in that program for the few years leading up to it they won't hack it. The IB program DOES have a set curriculium that must be adhered to across the board and a school CAN lose their IB program. There are also REQUIREMENTS to be accepted into the IB program. Not every district has the IB program to offer their truly gifted students so they are stuck in the watered down AP courses w/ everyone else.
There is a HUGE difference between the IB and AP programs. A student can take as little as 1 AP course and regular courses in every other subject. In the IB program you are fully immersed into it in all subjects. Cuts out the riff-raff of the kids that are there because their parents "think" their kid is smart. Also gets the kids that really do want to learn and go as far as their mind can take them.
Not ALL TAG classes and G/T programs are run like that though. There ARE some out there that it takes scoring in the top 98% to even get CONSIDERED to be in the program. Even once in your not always "in" either. You MUST keep your grades up or you will be kicked out. There is no cut off on what grade one can get "kicked out" either. I've seen kids in middle school get "kicked out" half way thru a semester be it because of grades or discipline problems. I'm sure those parents are happy as well.
There are also some TAG and G/T programs that a student can enter at ANY grade. I've known some that did not start the program till 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th grade.
Not all G/T and TAG programs are alike. To try to say across the board w/ such a broad paint brush that they are ALL run like what YOU have personally seen is not accurate.
As the kids say, "Well, obvi!" We've seen a lot of different programs described here. I do think though, that testing ONCE, in third grade, is not the way to go. Having raised two kids K-college (oldest is in grad school), I have changed my mind many times over regarding the best approach to this issue. Maybe you will too, as your kids grow.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 12-21-2008 at 08:59 AM..
Reason: add bold
EXACTLY! There are no requirements that must be met for a student to enroll in an AP course either, in most cases. With the AP program there is no set across the board curriculium that must be followed. Although they are trying to change that. Even in one district from one high school to the next the AP classes can vary. I've heard of way too many of the "watered down" A/P courses at some high schools.
When it comes to the IB program unless the student has been prepped to be in that program for the few years leading up to it they won't hack it. The IB program DOES have a set curriculium that must be adhered to across the board and a school CAN lose their IB program. There are also REQUIREMENTS to be accepted into the IB program. Not every district has the IB program to offer their truly gifted students so they are stuck in the watered down AP courses w/ everyone else.
There is a HUGE difference between the IB and AP programs. A student can take as little as 1 AP course and regular courses in every other subject. In the IB program you are fully immersed into it in all subjects. Cuts out the riff-raff of the kids that are there because their parents "think" their kid is smart. Also gets the kids that really do want to learn and go as far as their mind can take them.
There are huge differences in both of these programs from school to school. For example, in my district, one school has an IB program where you don't have to do the whole enchilada; you can take as many or few IB courses as you wish. In another high school in the same district, you have to do the whole thing or not at all. In both schools, there are no prereqs for IB, either.
AP courses do have to follow a curriculum, and there is the cumulative test at the end, just like in IB. Colleges are free to decided what scores they will accept on both tests, before granting credit.
Throwing everyone into the same class together is not really fair, b/c it teaches to the dumbest kid there. So everyone else is just sol? And I'm sorry, as to the self-esteem issues - geezus, this is why we have the most selfish bunch of people running around society now. B/c so many parents are obsessed with their self-esteem and b/c they never learn about winning, losing, and real life.
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