Homeschooling (psychology, biology, majors, test)

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I do not struggle with my subject. It's pedagogy I struggle with. It will take a few years to straighten that out because there's just no replacement for experience there. The homeschooler, who isn't a subject matter expert, will struggle against their own limited knowledge of the subject AND pedagogy.

Pedagogy, in teaching one's own children (unless one is perhaps a co-op teacher, or Michelle Duggar or someone else who homeschools crowds of children), is irrelevant.
Either that, or it's something parents master in the days of teaching Junior to count to three and name his colors. (I prefer the first argument, but you may choose.)
As for subject matter...there are things I know well, things my husband knows well, and things we don't know that well. (I cannot, for example, teach Japanese, no matter how much my daughter wishes to learn it.) For that, we hire out, barter with others who can, or-- in the case of Revit-- learn it first. There are some disadvantages to that last, but there are also advantages: my children see that learning continues into adulthood, that adults can be secure enough to admit they don't know everything, and that when one doesn't know everything, it is incumbent upon one to find out those things which lie in the gaps. Life lessons one rarely gets from Mrs. Smith in 4th period, and I might add equally (and possibly far more) ultimately useful than a lecture comparing Under Milk Wood and The Lord of the Rings.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by sunshineann

When is this going to end? I mean really. i stopped along time ago, and happened to notice that this thread was still going.. If it has not been noticed by now, that no matter what anyone contributes, there is going to be that one who will debate and debate and continue the discussion/debate just to prove a point that those who homeschool are grasping at straws. (in that persons opinion) Not mine, i homeschooled my girls for a while. And it does not matter what you say, that one person will have done it better, taught it better, made the better decisions, ect...(of course in their own little world)

Sunshine, such is the nature of message board debate. Some people waste time (or in my case, wait for the dryer to be done) by playing endless rounds of spider solitaire, some by debating the nature and quantity of God (which I've done from time to time, but Ivory has, overall, been a much better sport than some of the folks on the religion boards). It'd no doubt be more profitable to go into the kitchen and bake something, but my son has commandeered my mixer, and I'm not sure I want to know why.

[flik_becky]

Originally Posted by beanandpumpkin

You have said this over, and over, and over, and over again during this thread, but have neglected to explain what results you are looking for. You have been provided with studies showing that homeschoolers score in the top 20% of those useless standardized testing assessments. You are giving the impression that you have no idea what you are talking about, but since you say that you have researched this subject, perhaps you could cite some sources, give some numbers, and show some type of proof behind your own theory?

I second this motion. Perhaps, just for pure enjoyment, I will try my best to find real studies (not more forums like these or opinion articles) that prove this. But then again, I'd be wasting my entire day because it's just not out there.

I will say one thing...I detest government programs. They are inferior sources to gain your needs...food stamps, wic, hud, medical coverage, ect. and we all know that relying on these programs alone would not provide us with all we need. Schooling is the same. Its inferior. Its crap. I hated school. By the time I was 14, I wanted to homeschool myself to get the torture over with. I could have taught myself better and faster than any public school teacher, and did in many subjects, some in which I in turn taught the teacher.

I would never be able to hold my head high saying..."I prove low quality, government mandated education to the mass of society who have no choice but to take it. I am proud of what I give my community. So selfless of me. Its a selfless as working at a desk giving out food stamps instead of job opportunites or teaching the skills in the first 13 years so those lining up here would not need to." But that would be dreaming. There is only one group of education that has been able to side step the typical trends and those are the homeschoolers.

Why do teachers support absolute government control in education in that they feel that homeschooling should be out lawed?

Instead, we want our children to go to public school where the teachers can tell our kids that we are so wrong because we see things differently. Oh no, our kids might grow up and make a differance. Gasp! They might make waves. So scary. What terrorists to think differently than the masses. They might lobby for seat belts on school buses. Our government is begining to sound like a cult to me.

[flik_becky]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

Yes but there's a difference between a novice teacher and homeschooling you're missing. The teacher is, at least, a subject matter expert. Her issus will be in how to apply what she knows. The homeschooler is not a subject matter expert. Holes in her own education will repeat on to her children AND, like the novice teacher, she'll need to learn how to teach the material. You can't teach what you don't know exists and books won't do it for you. The novice teacher, can explain the why behind the what to the student who questions. The parent can only explain what they know and I can tell you from first hand experience that some parents are way off base. I've had kids come in and tell me "My dad told me ______" and blank is dead wrong.

I do not struggle with my subject. It's pedagogy I struggle with. It will take a few years to straighten that out because there's just no replacement for experience there. The homeschooler, who isn't a subject matter expert, will struggle against their own limited knowledge of the subject AND pedagogy.

Fortunately, children don't seem to fare any worse for having the occaisional novice teacher. I'd only expect to see a difference if they had novice teachers year over year, like homeschoolers do. Perhaps this is why homeschooling doesn't yeild the results you'd expect based on demographics alone. You can't teach what you don't know and books can only do so much. I have a good chemistry text and I spend 20% of my time teaching outside of it. Fortunately, I recognize the 20% I need to supplement because I know my subject.

To the comment that the students come to school and incorrectly state something that the ignorant parent told them, lets look at something as simple as columbus. How many teachers incorrectly teach that Columbus was Italian when all of the latest up to date information tells otherwise?

Do you teach your students that Hitler was seen as a great leader before WWII and it was only after WWII that those who helped spread propaganda were seen as terrorists, they were heroes until then?

Do you teach your students that Martin Luther King was seen as one of the biggest terrorist threats by the CIA or that his very own children went to court to fight for the man put behind bars for his murder and the ruling came out there there was suffient evidence that indicated a conspiracy?

Does the public school teach that those who migrated to the west side of North America not only migrated from China but those from the east side of north America came from Europe in boats as well?

Do you teach your students that, while we might have a lot of illegal immigrants from Mexico in our country right now, a large chunk of land actually belonged to Mexico before we came to 'settle the west' and that maybe they have a right to it?

What do the history books say about the history of the Catholic church in Europe? We exhault what they did. They civilized fighting tribes right? No they killed the ones that did not conform. Before the king died and the new one with Roman Catholic beliefs step into his place, there was a place in every city that was a small city in of itself of cantons after cantons of all the different religious beliefs where you would go to worship, in peace, your beliefs and all these religions got along. Do you teach that the great Roman Catholic church hired those savages they converted to go through and destroy these cantons and murder all those various religous leaders? That they went through and destroyed thousands of years of knowledge and history and forbad anyone to teach their traditions to their own children? More was lost than gained because of this.

Do you teach your students this: Before we sent missionaries to Africa, the tribes there lived off the land. Once our missionaries went there, we taught them how uncivilized this was and taught them how to clear there land and farm. Then, when the lands became unfit for planting and after long droughts, the people started starving. Do you teach your students that WE did this to them? That today, in order to feed their families, they butcher their own children?! That there are now "missionaries" being sent into these villages to teach these people how to eat from what the land gives them because it is an endless source of food for them? And that missionaries and ministers are assamed to call themselves that in public there because of this?

No. We talk about the wars. We talk about aids. We talk about their unchristian lifestyles. How uncivilized they still are. We side step the real big issues, how we are often the fault of them. There will always be war. There will always be diseases. Hopefully though, we can provide them with the education they need so they do not have to eat their children. But that will start with QUALITY education during those crucial 13 years.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by flik_becky

I will say one thing...I detest government programs. They are inferior sources to gain your needs...food stamps, wic, hud, medical coverage, ect. and we all know that relying on these programs alone would not provide us with all we need. Schooling is the same. Its inferior. Its crap. I hated school. By the time I was 14, I wanted to homeschool myself to get the torture over with. I could have taught myself better and faster than any public school teacher, and did in many subjects, some in which I in turn taught the teacher.

I would never be able to hold my head high saying..."I prove low quality, government mandated education to the mass of society who have no choice but to take it. I am proud of what I give my community. So selfless of me. Its a selfless as working at a desk giving out food stamps instead of job opportunites or teaching the skills in the first 13 years so those lining up here would not need to." But that would be dreaming. There is only one group of education that has been able to side step the typical trends and those are the homeschoolers.

As in everything else, there is diversity in homeschoolers' opinions.
My two eldest attended public school through graduation. They were, actually, reasonably well served (and the gaps I didn't find out about until well after the fact). They are adults: productive, intelligent, thoughtful and curious women. And at the time that they were in school, I would have been ill-equipped to homeschool, so it's a good thing they were mostly well-served by the option we chose.
That having been said, my eldest two children are not my youngest, nor has the local county school system remained unchanged in the last thirty, even ten or five years.
It is a huge urban conglomerate which would rather spend money on attorneys to deny ESE kids accommodations than to spend money on the accommodations themselves.
It is a system which has built ever-larger facilities, no matter what research exists saying children do better in smaller schools.
It is a system which prides itself on a few magnet schools, and lets the rest of the system falter; a system which is at the mercy of hundreds of school buses and local politics and the godawful mess brought by Jeb Bush and by NCLB.
It's a school system in which teachers are poorly screened, in which children are unsafe from bullies and sexual predators and gang violence, in which gifted and ESE parents are routinely pitted against one another so that they won't see that the bogeyman is not other people's children, but administrative ineptitude.
In short, it is a system which does not value children-- and that any children at all are served is purely the result of a few dedicated teachers willing to bang their heads against walls, and the parents and attorneys who fight the county on a daily basis.

There are school systems out there which are functional, I think, or at least I hear rumors of such. This one is not. And yet my younger children have been fortunate in that, because our retreat from chaos and disorder led us to something which works fantastically for us. I can only wish others the same.

[wolfeyes]

My 2 cents might not be worth anything But.. I gonna put it in here any ways! Homeschooling or family-based education has been the primary mode of education for most of recorded history. Institutionalized schooling, while what is familiar to most of us today, is actually relatively new. In fact, the last compulsory education laws in the United States weren't passed until 1918. The modern homeschooling movement, which was a return to family-based education, began in the 1960's. Homeschooling in America is making a big comeback with all the problems that seem to stem from the education system. What people in American don't seem to realize is this country was made by homeschooling. It was one of the few times in America when most children could read and write and they were taught in covered wagons trekking into the wilderness. I mean really look at our Forefathers they were very educated and they didn't even go to public school..Oh yea Public schools weren't such a thing then.

Ivory: You say (You can't teach what you don't know exists and books won't do it for you. The novice teacher, can explain the why behind the what to the student who questions. The parent can only explain what they know and I can tell you from first hand experience that some parents are way off base.) How do you know we can't teach? What makes you think were not educated enough to teach our own child? Just because we didn't go to college and become a teacher doesn't mean we can't teach our child. And you said you have had a few students come in and say something different because their parents said something other than what you say.. doesn't mean that parent isn't smart. Just means everyone thinks differently. I know there are allot of parents out there that didn't finish their education but I surely hope you don't tell the student their parent is dumb because they were wrong. And really what is this demographics you keep speaking of (You wrote: homeschooling doesn't yeild the results you'd expect based on demographics alone).. please do tell. And..Are you sure?

Some seems to have a problem with homeschooling due too, they think parents shouldn't homeschool because they are not educated enough and that there may not be enough socialization in homeschooling as there is public schools (not realizing that education and socialization starts in the home) it is getting more and more evident that some teachers aren't doing their jobs. There are some in it just for the money and not really interested in teaching. Some don't have the so called "passion" for teaching. And there are a few that have unruly students and they(the teacher) can't control their temper (example: Student was dealing with an eating disorder.. the Teacher withheld his food.. the teacher then restrained him on the floor..sat on this kid and basically smothered him to death and told everyone that "All she was doing was her job"..To me that is NOT doing your job and she is still teaching now in Northern VA..lordy this woman needed her license ripped out from under her!!!). And then you have the select few teachers that... These are the select few that has just I don't know lost their minds or something. Having sex with students, since 2005 I have seen so many teachers in the news it isn't even funny and this means they aren't doing the job they were hired to do. How are these teachers being hired..and just this last year wow it was crazy in the news here..A 45 year old male teacher marrying his 16 year old student..said he was in love with her and she said same. There were several teacher arrested for sex with students this just this past school year here in NC. lordy.. and we can't forget the teachers that put on her facebook page..(show teachers saying "I hate my students," "I teach chitlins," and "I work in the ghetto of Charlotte.) Wow this is the kind of teachers I want teaching my child. When I can teach my child at home and she doesn't have to deal with all this hoopla. (I and her both enjoys the life of being a homeschooler and as long as she gets the education she needs it isn't an issue.) And what about the Florida Teacher humiliates and belittles a 5-year-old autistic kindergarten student and then this happened again in the mid west. You have to wonder..What is wrong with these Teachers!??

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by wolfeyes

My 2 cents might not be worth anything But.. I gonna put it in here any ways! Homeschooling or family-based education has been the primary mode of education for most of recorded history. Institutionalized schooling, while what is familiar to most of us today, is actually relatively new. In fact, the last compulsory education laws in the United States weren't passed until 1918. The modern homeschooling movement, which was a return to family-based education, began in the 1960's. Homeschooling in America is making a big comeback with all the problems that seem to stem from the education system. What people in American don't seem to realize is this country was made by homeschooling. It was one of the few times in America when most children could read and write and they were taught in covered wagons trekking into the wilderness. I mean really look at our Forefathers they were very educated and they didn't even go to public school..Oh yea Public schools weren't such a thing then.

Ivory: You say (You can't teach what you don't know exists and books won't do it for you. The novice teacher, can explain the why behind the what to the student who questions. The parent can only explain what they know and I can tell you from first hand experience that some parents are way off base.) How do you know we can't teach? What makes you think were not educated enough to teach our own child? Just because we didn't go to college and become a teacher doesn't mean we can't teach our child. And you said you have had a few students come in and say something different because their parents said something other than what you say.. doesn't mean that parent isn't smart. Just means everyone thinks differently. I know there are allot of parents out there that didn't finish their education but I surely hope you don't tell the student their parent is dumb because they were wrong. And really what is this demographics you keep speaking of (You wrote: homeschooling doesn't yeild the results you'd expect based on demographics alone).. please do tell. And..Are you sure?

Some seems to have a problem with homeschooling due too, they think parents shouldn't homeschool because they are not educated enough and that there may not be enough socialization in homeschooling as there is public schools (not realizing that education and socialization starts in the home) it is getting more and more evident that some teachers aren't doing their jobs. There are some in it just for the money and not really interested in teaching. Some don't have the so called "passion" for teaching. And there are a few that have unruly students and they(the teacher) can't control their temper (example: Student was dealing with an eating disorder.. the Teacher withheld his food.. the teacher then restrained him on the floor..sat on this kid and basically smothered him to death and told everyone that "All she was doing was her job"..To me that is NOT doing your job and she is still teaching now in Northern VA..lordy this woman needed her license ripped out from under her!!!). And then you have the select few teachers that... These are the select few that has just I don't know lost their minds or something. Having sex with students, since 2005 I have seen so many teachers in the news it isn't even funny and this means they aren't doing the job they were hired to do. How are these teachers being hired..and just this last year wow it was crazy in the news here..A 45 year old male teacher marrying his 16 year old student..said he was in love with her and she said same. There were several teacher arrested for sex with students this just this past school year here in NC. lordy.. and we can't forget the teachers that put on her facebook page..(show teachers saying "I hate my students," "I teach chitlins," and "I work in the ghetto of Charlotte.) Wow this is the kind of teachers I want teaching my child. When I can teach my child at home and she doesn't have to deal with all this hoopla. (I and her both enjoys the life of being a homeschooler and as long as she gets the education she needs it isn't an issue.) And what about the Florida Teacher humiliates and belittles a 5-year-old autistic kindergarten student and then this happened again in the mid west. You have to wonder..What is wrong with these Teachers!??

As I said you can't teach what you don't know. I am a subject matter expert. What I'm learning as a novice teacher is pedagogy. It's my classroom management and presentation that have to be honed. I know my material. So well, I can teach it six ways. The question is which of the six I should be useing.

I am not a subject matter expert in all subjects. I have an advantage teaching chemistry, physics or math that I wouldn't have in english, spanish or history to name three. I'm inadequate teaching any of those subjects. Which is why the state won't certify me to teach them.

Yes, one of my issues with homeschooling is they allow uneducated parents to homeschool. IMO, if teachers need certification, parents who homeschool should too. There is no reason we should accept less from a teacher simply because she is a parent. I have to wonder if this is not a contributing factor in why homeschooling doesn't deliver the results you'd expect on demographics alone.

Yes, this country was built on homeschooling back when we were an agrigarian society. Back when high school graduation was the exception not the rule. Back when few went on to college. Life and education have changed a lot since we outgrew homeschooling. I, for one, don't want to go back to the educational standards that were in place when homeschooling was the norm. Children were only as educated as mom and dad cared for them to be or could educate them. There is a reason we decided to standardize education and make it mandatory. Parents weren't doing an adequate job in light of how society was changing.

Yes, I'm sure homeschooling does not deliver results consistent with demographics. Homeschooling is just better than average. Just having involved parents boosts children above average, just coming from a two parent family, just having educated parents (homeschoolers are more likely to have moms who are college grads among other things), the lower student to teacher ratio should yeild better than average results, reducing the lower SES (the only one that seems to be, significantly different in homeschoolers) would yeild better than average results, that the education is tailored to the individual child should yield better than average results, and, the icing on the cake....those for whom homeschooling turns out not to work simply quit and send their children to other schools. This alone would yeild FANTASTIC results. How much would you expect the average to increase by in a public school if you only counted the sucess stories as homeschoolers do?

So many things point to better than average results for homeschooling that it's reasonable to expect fantastic results. Where are they?

The only factors I can see that would point to lower results are parents who are not subject matter experts, parents as teachers who haven't developed their pedagogy or parents simply ill equipped, though well meaning, to teach. Obviousy, this must be overriding all that is in favor of homeschooling.

Now look at what the children would still have if traditional schooled. They'd still be from two parent households, their SES would not change, their mother's level of education would not change and that their parents were involved would not change. What would change is more peer to peer interactions, more opportunties for learning to work cooperatively (A BIG plus in the work world) and they'd gain teachers who, mostly are experienced and subject matter experts.

I hold two masters degrees. One in teaching and I am not fool enough to think what's best for my children is me as their only teacher. I'm not qualified for that job nor am I arrogant enough to think I am. I would do my children a grave disservice to take them out of school because school added to what my children already have is the best combination.

My kids have an educated mom who is invovled in their educations either way. They come from a higher SES and have their father living with them either way. Odds have it, they should be above average. Reality is they are doing FANTASTIC. I have one daughter who tests in the top 5% and the other in the top 1%. I'm not fool enough to think that taking away what the school brings to the picture would yeild better results than this.

Now one can argue as to why my kids are where they are. Maternal education is, by far, the biggest factor in whether or not children succeed. You can, accurately, predict results based on maternal education at birth alone as far as grouping kids as successful/not successful. SES runs a close second. Increased SES increases outcomes. Involved parents are also a big factor as is having dad in the household (but that has more to do with behavior issues that would interfere with learning) My kids have all this regardless of where they are schooled. Anything else is added to this mix.

It should be noted that during the later years peers are also a strong influence.

The principal of my dd's new school next year said it best when I expressed concern over the school's size and her being lost in the crowd. He just rolled his eyes, looked at my husband then looked at me and said "With parents like you she cannot help but succeed.". Of course she will be honors tracked to keep her with the right peers. I take no chances.

[flik_becky]

I know I’ve been ranting for two days but here is a little more. The better educated teachers are bashing homeschooler’s choices. They are not able to support any of their claims. I challenge them to find articles that state individual problems that have risen from homeschooling.

Kind of like these:

Creepy teacher humiliates 5 year old special needs kid by having the class vote him out of class.

Alex has not been back to school since the incident, and he starts screaming when his mother takes him with her to drop off his siblings at school. The other night, Barton said, he kept repeating “I’m not special” over and over.

http://silentconsort.com/2008/06/01/creepy-teacher-humiliates-special-needs-kid-has-kindergarten-class-vote-him-out/

Teachers choke their students;
Math teacher chokes his student

"It's heartbreaking to know that your child is supposed to be safe at school, but yet this kind of violent crime is going on," Magellan said.

http://www.10news.com/news/17595550/detail.html

Teacher chokes boy during dodge ball,

A sub teacher choked a 10-year-old student during a dodge-ball game after the boy tried to punch the teacher. The sub teacher and student got in an argument over the dodgeball game and the teacher was calling the boy a "crybaby" which led to the attempted punch.

Teacher Chokes Student During Dodgeball: Self-Defense?

SO SHOCKING!

A 60-year-old substitute teacher is facing third-degree assault charges for allegedly choking a 16-year-old student after teasing sexual banter got out of hand, the Staten Island Advance reported.
The teen, identified only as Michael, says a girl in their class asked Michael Doti if he ever “had” her sister, meaning if the substitute ever taught the girl's sister in class, the newspaper reported.
“I’ve had many girls in my time,” Doti reportedly responded.
The exchange led to some offensive remarks, including one where Doti alleged sexual relations with Michael's sister, teen claims.
Michael responded by saying, “Are you kidding me? What if I said I had sex with your mother?” the Staten Island Advance reported.
At that point, the teacher allegedly grabbed Michael by the neck and started to shake him.

FOXNews.com - Student Says Teacher Choked Him After Sexual Banter Got Out of Hand at New York School - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News

And a 12 page PDF about teachers who bully their students
Teachers Who Bully Students: Patterns and Policy Implications

Bullying by teachers shares some similarities to peer-on-peer bullying. Like peer-on-peer bullying, it is an abuse of power that tends to be chronic and often is expressed in
a public manner. It is a form of humiliation that generates attention while it degrades a
student in front of others. In effect, the bullying can be a public degradation ceremony in
which the victim’s capabilities are debased and his or her identity is ridiculed.

http://www.stopbullyingnow.com/teachers%20who%20bully%20students%20McEvoy.pdf

Or how about this teacher who abuses a student because she did not chose Obama as her choice for president, brings her to tears, and is stupid enough to video tape it!

So in other words, Barack is going to end that war in Iraq. What do you all know about that war in Iraq?
[Harris addresses Kathy] Talk, cause yo daddy in the military. Talk. It’s a senseless war! And by the way, Cathy, the person that you’re picking for president said that our troops could stay in Iraq for another hundred years if they need to!
[Camera pans to Cathy, in near tears.]
Harris: So that means that your daddy could stay in the military for another hundred years!

http://michellemalkin.com/2008/11/06/child-abuser-obama-supporting-teacher-bullies-soldiers-daughter/

How about segregated proms that STILL happen all across the south?
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/11/06/child-abuser-obama-supporting-teacher-bullies-soldiers-daughter/

Or about that great 5th grade teacher who gave out sex tapes to her students, and we, by the way, are suppose to feel bad for her ‘innocent’ mistake. You know, I’ve done lots of video editing and that clip did not get there unless it was dragged and dropped into the program, or at the very least, saved in the same folder on the computer. I do not feel sorry for the stupid.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1197311/Teacher-battles-save-job--sending-students-home-DVD-sex-tape.html

Three teachers sex scandals with their students.
DetentionSlip.org: Tis the season for teacher sex scandals　

or School curbs girl's report on gay rights activist Milk
School curbs girl's report on gay rights activist Milk

or how about the taste of a school who can't get their crap together and sends a letter warning the grieving parents that their dead daughter might miss prom if she couldn't get her act together. Absolutely unforiveable.
Letter shock for grieving parents - News - Manchester Evening News

Or how about the principle that forced a student to change of a kilt that he was using for an art project about his heritage?
Newsmax.com - Utah School Forces Student to Change Out of Kilt

Or...Taser used on 12 year old autistic boy
And the part that makes me ticked...

Some civil rights groups have criticized the devices, with Amnesty International estimating that since June 2001, more than 334 people in the U.S. died after being Tasered.
"The risks of using a Taser on a child are just not understood well enough at this point to justify their use," said Hector Villagra, director of the Orange County office of the American Civil Liberties Union of Southern California.

Use of Taser on SoCal boy being investigated

Until the closed minded anti-homeschoolers have articles upon articles like these that prove the dangers of homeschooling, I will refuse to believe that public school is better than homeschooling. Go ahead and scream at the top of your lungs “THESE ARE RARE ISOLATED INCIDENCES!” But than I will ask you to name a public school, any school, and I will be able to find information about government allowed and protected corruption within its walls.

All I see is that many schools promote prejudices against heritage, skin color, and religion. Many claim of the dangers of 'isoloated' homeschooled students, and how they are lacking 'diversity' when the fact remains that they can and do get much more open minded education that is not influenced by the likes of the intolerant public schools.

[wolfeyes]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

As I said you can't teach what you don't know. I am a subject matter expert. What I'm learning as a novice teacher is pedagogy. It's my classroom management and presentation that have to be honed. I know my material. So well, I can teach it six ways. The question is which of the six I should be useing.

I am not a subject matter expert in all subjects. I have an advantage teaching chemistry, physics or math that I wouldn't have in english, spanish or history to name three. I'm inadequate teaching any of those subjects. Which is why the state won't certify me to teach them.

Yes, one of my issues with homeschooling is they allow uneducated parents to homeschool. IMO, if teachers need certification, parents who homeschool should too. There is no reason we should accept less from a teacher simply because she is a parent. I have to wonder if this is not a contributing factor in why homeschooling doesn't deliver the results you'd expect on demographics alone.

Yes, this country was built on homeschooling back when we were an agrigarian society. Back when high school graduation was the exception not the rule. Back when few went on to college. Life and education have changed a lot since we outgrew homeschooling. I, for one, don't want to go back to the educational standards that were in place when homeschooling was the norm. Children were only as educated as mom and dad cared for them to be or could educate them. There is a reason we decided to standardize education and make it mandatory. Parents weren't doing an adequate job in light of how society was changing.

Yes, I'm sure homeschooling does not deliver results consistent with demographics. Homeschooling is just better than average. Just having involved parents boosts children above average, just coming from a two parent family, just having educated parents (homeschoolers are more likely to have moms who are college grads among other things), the lower student to teacher ratio should yeild better than average results, reducing the lower SES (the only one that seems to be, significantly different in homeschoolers) would yeild better than average results, that the education is tailored to the individual child should yield better than average results, and, the icing on the cake.... those for whom homeschooling turns out not to work simply quit and send their children to other schools. This alone would yeild FANTASTIC results. How much would you expect the average to increase by in a public school if you only counted the sucess stories as homeschoolers do?

So many things point to better than average results for homeschooling that it's reasonable to expect fantastic results. Where are they?

The only factors I can see that would point to lower results are parents who are not subject matter experts, parents as teachers who haven't developed their pedagogy or parents simply ill equipped, though well meaning, to teach. Obviousy, this must be overriding all that is in favor of homeschooling.

Now look at what the children would still have if traditional schooled. They'd still be from two parent households, their SES would not change, their mother's level of education would not change and that their parents were involved would not change. What would change is more peer to peer interactions, more opportunties for learning to work cooperatively (A BIG plus in the work world) and they'd gain teachers who, mostly are experienced and subject matter experts.

I hold two masters degrees. One in teaching and I am not fool enough to think what's best for my children is me as their only teacher. I'm not qualified for that job nor am I arrogant enough to think I am. I would do my children a grave disservice to take them out of school because school added to what my children already have is the best combination.

My kids have an educated mom who is invovled in their educations either way. They come from a higher SES and have their father living with them either way. Odds have it, they should be above average. Reality is they are doing FANTASTIC. I have one daughter who tests in the top 5% and the other in the top 1%. I'm not fool enough to think that taking away what the school brings to the picture would yeild better results than this.

Now one can argue as to why my kids are where they are. Maternal education is, by far, the biggest factor in whether or not children succeed. You can, accurately, predict results based on maternal education at birth alone as far as grouping kids as successful/not successful. SES runs a close second. Increased SES increases outcomes. Involved parents are also a big factor as is having dad in the household (but that has more to do with behavior issues that would interfere with learning) My kids have all this regardless of where they are schooled. Anything else is added to this mix.

It should be noted that during the later years peers are also a strong influence.

The principal of my dd's new school next year said it best when I expressed concern over the school's size and her being lost in the crowd. He just rolled his eyes, looked at my husband then looked at me and said "With parents like you she cannot help but succeed.". Of course she will be honors tracked to keep her with the right peers. I take no chances.

Again, How do you know I don't know what I am teaching? Just because I am not a teacher in the public school system does not mean I have no knowledge of what I am doing!! And what makes you think were Uneducated people?? (So nice of you to call us uneducated people..thats great to hear from a so called educated person goes to show what kind of teacher you really are.)
Teachers need certification because they work under the State..homeschooling parents don't work for the state nor do they get paid for teaching as you do. If that's the case then maybe us Parents who homeschool should get paid too. And we still have to pay school taxes even though we homeschool, in which this is how you recieve your paycheck is through us uneducated homeschooling people paying taxes! Maybe your afraid that if parents keep homeschooling you might not get a paycheck in the future.

Again you bring up this demographics??

Yea and that was many many years ago before education was more advanced..And if the parents were educated back then the homeschooling would have continued as it does today.

I am sure there are some students that end up going back to regular schools but this doesn't mean it was due to a parent not knowing what they are doing.. it could be for many reasons. The child might choose to go back to school, or the parent couldn't find the time to work and homeschool, I am sure there are the select few that goes back because the parents couldn't handle the school work and wasn't able to find the resources for help.

Not all homes are a two parent household. I am not really sure where you were going with this.
It is great your children are excelling in the public school system, but I can't help but to think if you were not a school teacher how you would see homeschooling differently. I am not sure what the results are in homeschooling as you have no idea either. But I would think they should be pretty good results due to getting the one on one education from an uneducated parent otherwise it would have already been stopped. In which it hasn't and I am sure it is teachers like you who keep trying to stop it. But until then we will continue to homeschool and homeschooling will only get larger by the years to come.

[flik_becky]

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As I said you can't teach what you don't know. I am a subject matter expert. What I'm learning as a novice teacher is pedagogy. It's my classroom management and presentation that have to be honed. I know my material. So well, I can teach it six ways. The question is which of the six I should be useing.

Six ways? Is that all? Are you aware of how many programs there are out there for homeschoolers that also specialize in specific areas. Tout your “subject matter expert” crap. I never have admired degree or name dropping kinds. I suppose, if this were a group that was strictly “subject matter experts” like you, none would be as great if they did not go to the same college.
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I am not a subject matter expert in all subjects. I have an advantage teaching chemistry, physics or math that I wouldn't have in english, spanish or history to name three. I'm inadequate teaching any of those subjects. Which is why the state won't certify me to teach them.

Nice of you to be so honest. Again, I must repeat, did you know that the success that homeschooling which has been proven since the movement in the 60’s depending on two things: the higher education of the mother and the higher education of the father. Look at us for example, I can adequately teach language, English, reading, math of all kinds, computer skills, chemistry, music, and social studies in depth. I love science and history, however, my husband has me beat, and any public school teacher I’ve ever met, on all the up to date information out there in both areas.
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The research has come in over and over for many years…..home schooled parents are almost always as or better educated than school teachers, often having one or more of those classes that the likes of you took to make them specialized.

Show us the results of your statement. Find them. Reference them for all of us. You are wrong.
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Yes, one of my issues with homeschooling is they allow uneducated parents to homeschool. IMO, if teachers need certification, parents who homeschool should too. There is no reason we should accept less from a teacher simply because she is a parent. I have to wonder if this is not a contributing factor in why homeschooling doesn't deliver the results you'd expect on demographics alone.

Wrong. I already stated that the results prove you wrong on both of these accounts. The parents are very well educated, and often better educated than the teachers. And in the last article I posted that stated all the statistics, your argument about demographics has also been proven wrong. I have proven with the studies done, have you?
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Yes, I'm sure homeschooling does not deliver results consistent with demographics. Homeschooling is just better than average. Just having involved parents boosts children above average, just coming from a two parent family, just having educated parents (homeschoolers are more likely to have moms who are college grads among other things), the lower student to teacher ratio should yeild better than average results, reducing the lower SES (the only one that seems to be, significantly different in homeschoolers) would yeild better than average results, that the education is tailored to the individual child should yield better than average results, and, the icing on the cake....those for whom homeschooling turns out not to work simply quit and send their children to other schools. This alone would yeild FANTASTIC results. How much would you expect the average to increase by in a public school if you only counted the sucess stories as homeschoolers do?

What prejudices you have. Such old outdated ideologies. I’ve proven that with the opening paragraph of the article I listed. Prove your point. You have none. But as annoying as this unsubstantiated paragraph on repeat is…I must pause to point out that yield is spelled ‘i’ before ‘e’, all three times.
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I hold two masters degrees. One in teaching and I am not fool enough to think what's best for my children is me as their only teacher. I'm not qualified for that job nor am I arrogant enough to think I am. I would do my children a grave disservice to take them out of school because school added to what my children already have is the best combination.

It seems to me the homeschooled child in your mind is a little Laura Ingles running barefoot across the prairie with a little bonnet on her head , a calico print dress, and a white apron bringing a bunch of wild flowers to her mother before teaching her that one plus one equals two, how to spell the words beaver, Indian and thief and how to use those three in a sentence together, and carefully avoiding any talk about what brings babies into the world.

In a pervious thread on homeschooling, we learned that one in five teachers does an inadequate job teaching based on studies we were able to bring forth. Homeschooling parents however, teach to their fullest ability in every subject and then sets their children up with subject experts in every other area. Instead of 8 bad teachers out of 40, they gain 100% qualified teachers in every subject matter. Again, this can be proven by the drive colleges have in accepting homeschooled students, it’s a great way to increase their numbers.
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Now one can argue as to why my kids are where they are. Maternal education is, by far, the biggest factor in whether or not children succeed. You can, accurately, predict results based on maternal education at birth alone as far as grouping kids as successful/not successful. SES runs a close second. Increased SES increases outcomes. Involved parents are also a big factor as is having dad in the household (but that has more to do with behavior issues that would interfere with learning) My kids have all this regardless of where they are schooled. Anything else is added to this mix.

Blab on and on. Both my parents were high school drop outs and my mother had very little influence in my schooling. Oh wait, I could tell stories…about how she told me she wished I was homeschooled to raise two of her other children, and then there was a time I was beat for learning my Spanish in the kitchen while washing dishes (naming the dishes in Spanish as I washed them) and then there was the time we were talking about dog breeds and I was told I knew nothing because I agreed with her cousin who stated her long haired German Shepard was pure bred. “I ain’t got no,” is a common phrase she uses and she has difficulty with the word ‘signal.’ When losing cell phone signal, she says she’s going to lose her “sing-als.” She also threatened to keep from graduating, to call my teachers and attempt to spread senseless lies about me, and even forbad me from taking classes she did not agree with (like psychology). I love my mother but you are wrong in my case about her influence in my success. You are clearly ignorant.

I rose above it and education is something I am very passionate about. I laugh in the face of the so call “better educated” because I TEACH these so called better educated all the time. I often am in a position to correct their inaccurate statements about history, physics, and certain sciences, among other things. Not only that, we have put our knowledge together with just THREE other people in the world and rewrote history with some of the information we were able together and the lost history we were able to find, and I mean National Geographic big, not something small. In fact, some of that science/history has been on the science channel being shared by another expert. We have changed laws in our state and have been influential in ours and other states politics. And you can’t claim a dang thing about my level of “education” because we make a living with our knowledge, possibly making more than you yourself. We have so many choices as how to grow our business at this point, making it explode, we just can’t keep up with the two of us right now. People are begging to be taught what we know and some of the rich have put out some nice dollar signs to try and make it happen, to bring us to different countries even or come to ours. We just are not ready for it yet. We don’t have the facilities to make that happen at this time. But we have our entire lives ahead of us still and we’ll get there.

What makes your title all that more special than anyone elses. “I’m an expert, stand up and listen you stupid swine!” *yawn*