Homeschooling (college board, med school, uniform, astronomy)

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Aconite

Eh. Check out Phillips-Exeter or Concord Academy. Eighteen buys you a decent local effort.





Well, for pete's sake don't tell the people at the Aquarium, the Zoo, the County Extension Service or any of a number of other places that, because they're under the impression they're experts and have labs.



Well, and there's the crux of the matter, Ivory. You don't seem to be able to think very imaginatively on this subject. Come outside the box-- we have cookies....



Well, yanno...I have a computer, and internet access. I even have electricity and a roof, and a table and chairs. That stuff exists in many households, even here in Florida. Had 'em before I homeschooled, aamof. Our computer programs are far better than the ones the kids used at school, but Revit, AutoCAD and MS Office are charged off to dh's employment rather than homeschool, since that's why we have them. The government doesn't allow deductions for those of us who teach our own children, no matter how many other kids sit in (though they would if we taught them in a school building-- but I digress).



I don't teach organic Chem to eleven year olds. What has your experience been, doing so?




Our town offers chemical disposal. Doesn't yours? Or are you presuming I'm cooking up anthrax in the family Soup Pot of Death?

The animals we've dissected have come from the meat department at Publix, so yes, like as not they are disposed of appropriately. I find formalin unnecessary when you don't have to drag labs out to accomodate thirty or forty students. (And sheep's eyeballs are nasty no matter how well preserved, ftr.)

Seriously, how do you replace all that public schools offer like music programs, science labs, organize sports and computer labs on $1000/year per student? Internet access alone is 1/3 of that and that's before you sign up for any educational sites. Music lessons run about $25/half hour. I have no idea what joining organized sports would cost. I'm really curious as to how you provide everything on $1000 per year. How do you afford lab equipment? Do you pool resources or rent it? Or do your kids just watch video clips of other kids doing experiments?

My city does chemical disposal for normal household chemicals not lab chemicals. That has to be handled separately which is why you need a license or certificate to order them. They can't all be disposed of along with household chemicals and you need to know which can and which can't. (BTW, the FLINN catalog is a great resource for chemical neutralization and disposal)

My dd happens to be 11 and helps me set up and trial organic and biochem demos and labs all the time, however, that was not my point and you know it. I didn't ask how you teach organic to 11 year olds. I asked how it's taught. How WILL you teach these subjects without a lab? I assume you have to teach them sometime or do homeschoolers just omit them? Is there somewhere you can rent a lab facility? Or glassware? How do you work around not having the facilities needed for labs?

Please feel free to give examples of your outside of the box thinking. My box contains the basics so I'm not compelled to make do with less. I'm curious as to how well you can teach without equipment.

So, what labs do you do? Do you stick with houshold chemicals?

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

My dd happens to be 11 and helps me set up and trial organic and biochem demos and labs all the time, however, that was not my point and you know it. I didn't ask how you teach organic to 11 year olds. I asked how it's taught.

Ivory, how for the love of mike am I supposed to know how (e.g.) Sue and Bill Smith in Cedar Rapids IA teach chemistry to their children? Google, honey. Google is your friend.
I'll get you started (and I make no claims as to the quality of this site, I just googled it):
http://science-fair-projects.suite10...atory_supplies

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

How WILL you teach these subjects without a lab? I assume you have to teach them sometime or do homeschoolers just omit them?

I teach year by year. I am not currently planning specific lessons for when N is fifteen or sixteen, though I expect she'll be at the JC or possibly USF by then. As for my son, he's toyed with the idea of attending one of the magnets next county over. We'll work on that when we get there. If either suddenly decides they're pining to learn about preparation of ethers before then, I'll be sure to DM you, unless we just go cook it up in the Soup Pot o' Death.

[flik_becky]

Like it or not, education isn't just about your child.

No, sadly, public schools are tailor cut to meet the needs of the average and disregards the real individual needs of all students equally. I would love to have the confidence in public school to be able to send my kids there. I could put a lot more time into that business I run and be able to retire by 45. I bet that schools could restructure themselves so that all the kids could gain the max benefit, without pushing any one student off to the side.

Lets replace same age, equal classroom sizes with something more logical. Lets evaluate all kids and place them into each subject based of their ability and three different types of learning: independent learners, groups learners, and one on one learners. If you put all the kids that are great independent learners (advanced) into larger classes, group learners (average) into smaller classes, and the ones that need one on one(struggling) into the smallest classes and each class allowed to move at their own pace, boy would those struggling students benefit and the advanced kids would just blossom as well. If all the kids were able to be in classes, regardless of the age, and current grade level curriculums thrown out with everything simply being sequential in learning. Set our your minimum requirements for the one on one classes and let those independent learners learn as fast as they want to.

Not only that, can you just imagine the confidence that a struggling student would have without the pressure of keeping up with the average and how much less the advanced kids would feel they need to hide their skills, like my history teacher friend who gifted daughter gets c's on her work but aces the tests because she is tired of being picked on for being such a geek (product of teachers allowing students to grade each others work)?
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[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Aconite

Ivory, how for the love of mike am I supposed to know how (e.g.) Sue and Bill Smith in Cedar Rapids IA teach chemistry to their children? Google, honey. Google is your friend.
I'll get you started (and I make no claims as to the quality of this site, I just googled it):
Homeschool Science Laboratory Supplies: Finding Chemicals and Experiments for High School Science Curriculum | Suite101.com

I'm asking how you will do it. What is your plan?

Googling sites you can't vouch for and posting them proves that you can google. It's not a very good plan for how to teach science. In fact, it's a bad one. There are more bad sites than good ones. This is how you end up with kids thinking that he earth is in an eliptical orbit around the sun and that's why we have seasons.


How do you handle music lessons, teach organized sports to replace gym, what about art, comupter science....all on $1000 a year? And do them well?? As I said, my dd's music teacher offers classes to homeschooled kids for about $800 a year. Private lessons are about $25/half hour. I can't see replacing all that a public school can offer on $1000 a year.

BTW, the homeschoolers I know still use the public school for things like science, art, music and gym. I'm curious as to how those who don't do this manage without breaking the bank.

PS the site you posted simply has some basic kitchen chemistry I did with my kids when they were in kindergarten. Pretty simple. I hope homsechoolers go deeper than this.

PPS, when you get there, ask a chemistry teacher. There's a lot you can do without generating hazardous chemicals. Just yesterday I ran across candles with colored flames. These could be used when teaching about electron orbitals and line spectra. Not as good as a lab where the students burn the chemicals and then determine an unknown but they're something and kids will think they're cool.

[flik_becky]

How do you handle music lessons, teach organized sports to replace gym, what about art, comupter science....all on $1000 a year? And do them well??

Well...uh..we just go about teachin music cause we sing gospel tunes at church and country music at the talent show at the local fair. For sports, we encouage the kids to fight. Builds up their muscles and teaches themselves how to defend themselves. Art, well we know what kind of boy needs art, but come on really, we let the kids choose the type of horses painted on their bedroom walls. Com-up-ter? What the heck is one of those? I've heard of a computer before. We got one from a freebox at the garage sale and windows 95 works on it great!

Is this the type of response you expect? How humorous.

Lets see...I can buy all that chemisty material cheaper used if I go to any state wide gathering where parents trade and sell the materials they use.

There are so many homeschoolers in our area. Many are teachers, pre school-college level in every subject. If you join one co-op, chance are you could find help from any expert in any area at least somewhere within an hours drive.

I could take them to inexpensive labratory classes.

I COULD send them to the public school to learn this from a medicore teacher OR I could take them to a REAL lab and let them see how the REAL experts do it.

And I still stand by, they sell The Works toilet bowl cleaner to the general masses.

[Aconite]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

I'm asking how you will do it. What is your plan?

Googling sites you can't vouch for and posting them proves that you can google. It's not a very good plan for how to teach science.

Ivory, please reread, and then go feed that skinny little straw man. I told you to google to find out how other people teach subjects I have niot taught. I've no intention of teaching science from that site.

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

In fact, it's a bad one. There are more bad sites than good ones. This is how you end up with kids thinking that he earth is in an eliptical orbit around the sun and that's why we have seasons.

::tossing Straw Man a cookie::

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

How do you handle music lessons, teach organized sports to replace gym, what about art, comupter science....all on $1000 a year? And do them well?? As I said, my dd's music teacher offers classes to homeschooled kids for about $800 a year. Private lessons are about $25/half hour. I can't see replacing all that a public school can offer on $1000 a year.

I've no real desire to bog you down you in details, Ivory. I will, though, give you one concession:

How many schooled eleven-year-olds are familiar with the difference between Delta, Chicago, and Carolina blues music? How about the different kinds of jazz? Do they get to go to frequent live music performances? Music festivals? Can they tell Wagner from Puccini? Have they opinions on the controversy about Florida's state song?

Our music budget? Less than a hundred dollars this year. Volunteering at the radio station, being exposed to music at home, attending free concerts at the park and $5 performances by the Symphony (which offers free teachers' guides before the program, btw). We have a fine left-handed guitarist and a dulcimer-maker and player in the family. My mother sang opera professionally (though she's far too old and creaky to do so now). One needn't spend money on overpriced "homeschool music programs" to learn to love music.

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

BTW, the homeschoolers I know still use the public school for things like science, art, music and gym. I'm curious as to how those who don't do this manage without breaking the bank.

We used the school system's gifted pull-out class in elementary school. Its primary value was as a social club and 3.5 hour babysitting service, frankly. Not that I wasn't happy to have a free morning, but it wasn't really much of a supplement to their education.

[TouchOfWhimsy]

Originally Posted by flik_becky

I know I've proven it time and again throughout this thread and you've completely ignored the FACTS. They are, the proof is there, and you are just shooting of your mouth with unsubstantiated claims. If you see it, than others have and there would be proof to back up your claims. You have nothing.

Several times there has been evidence posted that homeschoolers score in the top 10-20th percentiles, but Ivory keeps ignoring those posts and saying "demographics would have me believe, blah blah blah." She asks for proof that homeschoolers do "better than average," but scoring in the 80th to 90th percentiles apparently don't count as "better than average" to her. Or something.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by beanandpumpkin

Several times there has been evidence posted that homeschoolers score in the top 10-20th percentiles, but Ivory keeps ignoring those posts and saying "demographics would have me believe, blah blah blah." She asks for proof that homeschoolers do "better than average," but scoring in the 80th to 90th percentiles apparently don't count as "better than average" to her. Or something.

Sorry but that's not what SAT and ACT scores indicate. If it were, homeschooling would be something to write home about. ACT scores are only 1-2 points higher than average. SAT's are similar.

Could you please repost the evidence that homeschoolers average in the top 10th-20th percentiles. I've seen noting to indicate that homeschoolers average better than 80%-90% of the general population. That's quite a claim. With ACT scores of only 1-2 points higher, that is not the case.

I just googled homeschooling and ACT scores (yes, us non homeschoolers can google too ) and came up with scores for Tennesee. Public school average = 20.3 points, Private school average - 21.85 points and homeschooling average = 21.45 points. So homeschooling, at least in Tennessee, isn't as good as private school and is only 1.15 points higher than public, which isn't much considering you're looking only at homeschool success stories by the time kids take the ACT.

http://redhatrob.wordpress.com/2008/...ol-act-scores/

If they're in the top 10th to 20th percentile, what does that make private schools? Sorry, but non are scoring an average in the top 10th-20th percentile according to this. I've never read anything that says any particular type of education does. Particular schools yes but not one type of education. We have schools that average 5 or 6 points above average around here but that's about the best claim I've ever seen.

Here's a breakdown by state for 1998-1999 but for some reason instead of giving the percent of graduates tested for homeschoolers, they gave number tested. Not sure how good a comparison that makes this but I don't see scores in the top 10th - 20th percentile for homeschoolers anywhere in the country on this list.

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000002/00000221.asp

http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000002/00000221.asp

[flik_becky]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

Sorry but that's not what SAT and ACT scores indicate. If it were, homeschooling would be something to write home about. ACT scores are only 1-2 points higher than average. SAT's are similar.

Could you please repost the evidence that homeschoolers average in the top 10th-20th percentiles. I've seen noting to indicate that homeschoolers average better than 80%-90% of the general population. That's quite a claim. With ACT scores of only 1-2 points higher, that is not the case.

I just googled homeschooling and ACT scores (yes, us non homeschoolers can google too ) and came up with scores for Tennesee. Public school average = 20.3 points, Private school average - 21.85 points and homeschooling average = 21.45 points. So homeschooling, at least in Tennessee, isn't as good as private school and is only 1.15 points higher than public, which isn't much considering you're looking only at homeschool success stories by the time kids take the ACT.

Public school vs. private school ACT scores « Contending with the Culture

If they're in the top 10th to 20th percentile, what does that make private schools? Sorry, but non are scoring an average in the top 10th-20th percentile according to this. I've never read anything that says any particular type of education does. Particular schools yes but not one type of education. We have schools that average 5 or 6 points above average around here but that's about the best claim I've ever seen.

Here's a breakdown by state for 1998-1999 but for some reason instead of giving the percent of graduates tested for homeschoolers, they gave number tested. Not sure how good a comparison that makes this but I don't see scores in the top 10th - 20th percentile for homeschoolers anywhere in the country on this list.

1998-99 ACT Average Composite Scores for Home Schooled Students by State (HSLDA | National Center Resource)

1998-99 ACT Average Composite Scores for Home Schooled Students by State (HSLDA | National Center Resource)

Did you also take the time to find out how old these kids are when they take the tests? The average homeschooler at 8th grade age is actually four years ahead. That would blow away your theory, because, as I've already pointed out, you are comparing 14-16 year old kids against 18 year olds.

[TouchOfWhimsy]

HSLDA | Homeschooling Maintains Academic Success

The College Board, which administers the Scholastic Aptitude Test (SAT) also notes the above-average performance of homeschoolers. In 2002, homeschoolers averaged 1092, 72 points higher than the national average of 1020. In 2001, homeschoolers scored 1100 on the SAT, compared to the national average of 1019. (2003 homeschool statistics not yet available.)

The Land of Ozz » Blog Archive » Homeschool SAT Scores at the Top in SC

2008 SAT Scores in South Carolina

Type School AVG Score*
Public School 980
Private School 1043
Home School 1088

PA Homeschoolers Score Well on 1999 SAT’s

For example, this fall Susan and I again tested homeschooled students using a standardized test called the CTBS/4 (Comprehensive Tests of Basic Skills, 4th Edition). We tested 986 students, mostly 3rd, 5th, and 8th graders. The median homeschooled student score was the 85th National Percentile in reading and the 80th National Percentile in Math. These are almost exactly the same as the 85th percentile in reading and 79th percentile in math that we reported in 1994 (Issue #49 of this newsletter).

HSLDA | Academic Statistics on Homeschooling

In North Dakota, Dr. Brian Ray conducted a survey of 205 homeschoolers throughout the state. The middle reading score was the 84th percentile, language was the 81st percentile, science was the 87th percentile, social studies was the 86th percentile, and math was the 81st percentile.

7. In 1990, the National Home Education Research Institute issued a report entitled "A Nationwide Study of Home Education: Family Characteristics, Legal Matters, and Student Achievement." This was a study of over 2,163 homeschooling families.
The study found that the average scores of the homeschool students were at or above the 80th percentile in all categories. The homeschoolers' national percentile mean was 84th for reading, 80th for language, 81st for math, 84th for science and 83rd for social studies.

In Pennsylvania, 171 homeschooled students took the CTBS standardized achievement test. The tests were all administered in group settings by Pennsylvania certified teachers. The middle reading score was the 89th percentile and the middle math score was the 72nd percentile. The middle science score was the 87th percentile and the middle social studies score was the 81st percentile. A survey conducted of all these homeschool families who participated in this testing found that the average student spent only 16 hours per week in formal schooling (i.e., structured lessons that were preplanned by either the parent or a provider of educational materials).

In 1982, Dr. Raymond Moore studied several thousand homeschooled children throughout the United States. His research found that these children have been performing, on the average, in the 75th to the 95th percentile on Stanford and Iowa Achievement Tests. Additionally, Dr. Moore did a study of homeschooled children whose parents were being criminally charged for exercising their right to teach their own children. He found that the children scored on the average in the 80th percentile

I could go on, but I won't. Now, where are your stats that prove that homeschoolers are scoring barely above average, again?

And, what does this really have to do with anything, anyway? Most homeschoolers don't have to and choose not to take standardized tests. I could not care less how well my local public school preps kids for standardized tests. I have nothing to do with the school. WHY do you care so very much about homeschoolers? Whether they go to school or stay home... what difference does it make to you? What is your goal? To convince us backwards homeschoolers to send our kids to mediocre schools? To "win" a debate that can't be won?