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I agree that usually schools are probably best for most children, but am uncomfortable with the government being too closely involved with mandating that. Some basic checks and balances are necessary, yes, but veering into the territory where government forces one option of schooling on all families frightens me with its broader implications.
In many parts of the country agrarian families weren't all that far away from others - depends where you were, of course, but until relatively recently it simply wasn't practical. Not to say that there weren't dysfunctional families, but I would think it would be hard to separate out isolation from the many other aspects of life at work in the past. I haven't read the historical scholarship on that, and would find it fascinating. In other words, I'm not saying I don't believe your statement - I am just curious how the researchers/scholars came to their conclusions and factored in all of the many other variables at play, and would be interested in reading it for myself.
I agree that usually schools are probably best for most children, but am uncomfortable with the government being too closely involved with mandating that. Some basic checks and balances are necessary, yes, but veering into the territory where government forces one option of schooling on all families frightens me with its broader implications.
In many parts of the country agrarian families weren't all that far away from others - depends where you were, of course, but until relatively recently it simply wasn't practical. Not to say that there weren't dysfunctional families, but I would think it would be hard to separate out isolation from the many other aspects of life at work in the past. I haven't read the historical scholarship on that, and would find it fascinating. In other words, I'm not saying I don't believe your statement - I am just curious how the researchers/scholars came to their conclusions and factored in all of the many other variables at play, and would be interested in reading it for myself.
I would think, back then, there were few statistics on such things, but I tend to remember it because isolation can do strange things.
I have never thought of parenthood as some form of ownership, well, not totally. Every mental case was someone's kid and many have children of their own.
We, as a community, should step in to protect a child. Someone has to. Ideally, the government is our tool. I also think that schools are a way to help a child to adjust to and succeed in their society - and also help them to conform to some civil norms if their parents have been negligent. They single out kids with learning problems, which can sometimes be remediated, and even can spot a child who may need glasses.
There are lots of practical reasons for schools and there are private schools if parents choose and have the money to send them there.
I think the feds are not proactive enough sometimes. I think, from reading some of the books by women who have escaped the FLDS (Fundie Mormons), that there should be a way to test children in such environments on a regular basis to see that they are being taught adequately.
It seems as though young children are taught that the outside world is evil and to be feared. Their education stops at some point, except for homekeeping and religion and they are often married off and saddled with multiple kids before they are capable of independent assessments of their situation if ever they are capable of making such an assessment. The whole thing starts with getting them young and brainwashing them, not giving them tools to function in other than their community and having many children as a disincentive to make a break for it.
Oh, and the police in such communities are members and enforce their own law rather than that of the state.
Yet many of these people and schools and facilities are taking public tax dollars (I think they called that 'bleeding the beast').
I don't know who would be in a better position to intervene in these cases.
but apparently you think that the government agencies, or "we as a community" have some type of ownership over children! LOL
Given that, for better or for worse, these children will be released on society, society should have a say in how they are educated. Society has the most to lose in not controlling education. It is to our benefit to have an educated society and that means making sure individuals are, properly, educated.
Parents do not own their children. They OWE society because they had children that society will have to accept. We owe it to society to make sure our children are contributing members of society when they are adults for all of their lives. And yes, that means obeying society's rules along the way. We work together in society for the betterment of society. At least we should. Unfortunately, too many only want to take care of themselves and get what they can get from society.
I would think, back then, there were few statistics on such things, but I tend to remember it because isolation can do strange things.
I have never thought of parenthood as some form of ownership, well, not totally. Every mental case was someone's kid and many have children of their own.
We, as a community, should step in to protect a child. Someone has to. Ideally, the government is our tool. I also think that schools are a way to help a child to adjust to and succeed in their society - and also help them to conform to some civil norms if their parents have been negligent. They single out kids with learning problems, which can sometimes be remediated, and even can spot a child who may need glasses.
There are lots of practical reasons for schools and there are private schools if parents choose and have the money to send them there.
I think the feds are not proactive enough sometimes. I think, from reading some of the books by women who have escaped the FLDS (Fundie Mormons), that there should be a way to test children in such environments on a regular basis to see that they are being taught adequately.
It seems as though young children are taught that the outside world is evil and to be feared. Their education stops at some point, except for homekeeping and religion and they are often married off and saddled with multiple kids before they are capable of independent assessments of their situation if ever they are capable of making such an assessment. The whole thing starts with getting them young and brainwashing them, not giving them tools to function in other than their community and having many children as a disincentive to make a break for it.
Oh, and the police in such communities are members and enforce their own law rather than that of the state.
Yet many of these people and schools and facilities are taking public tax dollars (I think they called that 'bleeding the beast').
I don't know who would be in a better position to intervene in these cases.
I'd rep you if I could.
Too many kids grow up thinking society owes them instead of them owing society. Where do these groups get the idea they are so special when compared to everyone else?
I have self-identified as a Democrat/Liberal for most of my adult life, but I must say that after following the homeschooling vs. public schooling threads for the last few weeks, I have had to reconcile with my Libertarian leanings. Frankly, some of you scare the heck out of me!
I think the fear is someone who was abusing their child might choose to homeschool to isolate the child. I would think homeschooling would be attractive to a parent trying to hide abuse so it would suprise me if abuse rates weren't higher. Not because homeschooling increases the risk but because a lifestyle that isolates the child from those who could report you would be attractive to an abusive parent.
We actually had a case like this in our neighborhood a few years back. A transient family where the kids caused all kinds of problems as soon as they entered our schools. Mom got tired of the accusations and investigations and decided to homeschool. Fortunately, the ball had already started rolling and she ended up losing her kids. Had she made the decision to homeschool as soon as she moved into this neighborhood, no one would have been the wiser.
So...the allegations were in existence before the homeschooling, and apparently not much was done since Mama was left alone.
You'll have to do better than that (even disregarding the obvious argument that the plural of "anecdote" is not "data"). While one exception may disprove a universal theory, it cannot prove one.
Obviously, people DO have kids for the wrong reasons.
Well, of course they do. That does not mean, however, that ill- or unplanned children are not cherished or cared for. (Nor is the corollary true, for that matter.) Assuming only children who are well-planned, and done so "for the right reasons" (and I shudder, given your previous posts, to think who might be the arbiter of that determination) are cared for is-- if nothing else-- to assume that at least half of all spontaneous twins are mishandled. Because IME, you can't plan for spontaneously producing two viable eggs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain
There are folks who should probably have many kids, being so much attuned to them
Nobody "should" have many kids. And further, there are many who are good parents to one or two or three, who would be disastrous with seven or eight (or eighteen). At some point, it becomes difficult to be "so much attuned to" a crowd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain
In some respects some home schooling can be thought of as akin to genetic inbreeding, replicating problems down through the generations.
Oh, now you're just trolling. Where's that "eyeroll" icon?
Given that, for better or for worse, these children will be released on society, society should have a say in how they are educated. Society has the most to lose in not controlling education. It is to our benefit to have an educated society and that means making sure individuals are, properly, educated.
Schools don't manage to properly "control" quite a few of the ones they already have, judging by the rates of teen alcoholism and drug use, teen pregnancy, suicide, bullying, and assorted other acting out. I think "society" should sue for malpractice before they start outlawing homeschool.
I also don't notice anyone here grousing about private schools (many of whom are either self-regulating or unaccredited altogether). I think this qualifies as another straw man, even if it isn't nearly as cute and cuddly as the one with the vaccuum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Parents do not own their children. They OWE society because they had children that society will have to accept. We owe it to society to make sure our children are contributing members of society when they are adults for all of their lives. And yes, that means obeying society's rules along the way. We work together in society for the betterment of society. At least we should. Unfortunately, too many only want to take care of themselves and get what they can get from society.
What does this have to do with homeschool? Do you have bands of roving homeschoolers carjacking old ladies and running meth labs and hooking on street corners in that skeery little neighborhood of yours, Ivory? As for sucking from the teat of society-- shoot, I'm paying school taxes for services I don't use. Not to mention I've apparently bailed out a few banks this spring and laid waste to a few Middle Eastern countries. And I don't even get a free breakfast or lunch for my trouble (though considering you have to sit through classes at the local school to get it, maybe there is some truth to the saying "there is no such thing as a free lunch").
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