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Right, and those photos are proof. Just like the city data stats can be applied to anyone on here, not just you. If you say that someone's children never or rarely leave the house, and the person has photos to prove otherwise, then how is that not proof?
So there's proof on both sides of non traditional learning. And what do you think you prove with this?
I'm just me and I can name three families that travel the country doing civil war reinactments and they traditionally school. They just go during the summer, on weekends and breaks. The stuff you're laying claim to for homeschoolers is open to all who care to do them, no homeschooling required. I have plenty of pictures of us doing non traditional educational activities and I've never homeschooled. Some are of activities done during school and some with us as a family so you've proved nothing.
The truth is, the only things homeschoolers are exposed to are what their parents thought to expose them to. My kids have what their parents expose them to and what the school, their teachers and their peers expose them to (I didn't include homeschooling peers becuase their experiences are equally controlled and limited by parents). For all of us, choosing some activities rules out others so no child gets every experience. That's where interacting with peers on a dailiy basis really comes in handy. Kids talk about their different experiences, give each other ideas and most importantly, challgenge each others beliefs.
And I never said anyone else couldn't use the stats here. Where'd you get that from my post? I simply said they counter the accusation against me that I need to get out and onto other boards. You're really stretching here to have something negative to say.
The truth is, the only things homeschoolers are exposed to are what their parents thought to expose them to. My kids have what their parents expose them to and what the school, their teachers and their peers expose them to (I didn't include homeschooling peers becuase their experiences are equally controlled and limited by parents). For all of us, choosing some activities rules out others so no child gets every experience. That's where interacting with peers on a dailiy basis really comes in handy. Kids talk about their different experiences, give each other ideas and most importantly, challenge each others beliefs.
As an aside, I don't think my parents considered my exposure to drug use as a second-grader in an elementary school bathroom to be a benefit of spending time with peers in public education, and I'm sure that their belief that drugs use is a bad idea isn't something they wanted challenged, particularly at a time when I did not have the emotional resources to deal with it on my own. The great school safety net had failed miserably.
Last edited by formercalifornian; 07-20-2009 at 11:28 AM..
Reason: combined two posts for brevity
I think I missed some of the posts in question, and don't feel like going back through pages and pages to find them, but I think it's fair to say that both homeschoolers and public (or private) school kids both have plenty of opportunities to experience educational opportunities in non-formal settings. Much of that depends on the parent, of course, but learning doesn't automatically stop when a public school kid steps outside of the classroom doors. The schools themselves also try to expose their students to all sorts of things outside of the school building, which is especially important for those kids who otherwise would never visit a museum, see an opera, visit a state park, etc.
I think the fear is someone who was abusing their child might choose to homeschool to isolate the child. I would think homeschooling would be attractive to a parent trying to hide abuse so it would suprise me if abuse rates weren't higher. Not because homeschooling increases the risk but because a lifestyle that isolates the child from those who could report you would be attractive to an abusive parent.
We actually had a case like this in our neighborhood a few years back. A transient family where the kids caused all kinds of problems as soon as they entered our schools. Mom got tired of the accusations and investigations and decided to homeschool. Fortunately, the ball had already started rolling and she ended up losing her kids. Had she made the decision to homeschool as soon as she moved into this neighborhood, no one would have been the wiser.
*yawn* Go back to your community and try to find something right with any of the homeschoolers there. I'm sure your that your way of thinking will find something wrong, like a loose hand rail going up the porch or something.
That's a good point. I'm waiting with bated breath for his take on all this.Just for kicks, I'll add this personal development to the conversation:
My spouse and I have been mulling over taking the kids on the road for a year in an RV in 2011. Although we have yet to work out the details, it seems entirely doable. Life has been very good to us. We recently paid off our house, which we'll rent out while we're away, and my husband can take a sabbatical or consult from the road, so why not? We are fully capable of homeschooling the kids through fourth-grade and seventh-grade, and we'll re-enroll them in public school at the end of our adventure. It's a big, beautiful world that we only go around once, and we'd love to discover it together. Anyone else ever thought of doing this?
Sorry -- I'm just trying to pick up my jaw from the floor.
IT was correct in saying that parents do not own their children. Apart from the abominable practice of slavery, no one owns anyone.
However, society in this country operates according to the notion of the social contract. As with any valid contract under the law, the parties in that contract (in this case, the government and the people) mutually and freely agree to exchange things of value in a quid-pro-quo arrangement: the voters give the government a portion of the income they have earned; the government spends it in accordance with the will of the people. In addition, the government has certain rules, but only those rules that the people have chosen.
Bottom line, the people do not "owe" the government automatically any more than the government automatically "owes" the people anything. We operate, as I said, by mutual agreement -- and it is only under the terms of this mutual agreement, this social contract, that we choose to "owe" our taxes we have agreed to pay and observe those laws we have voted into being.
Homeschooling is legal in all fifty states; it is the law of the land. It is considered an inappropriate impingement of the government into the private lives of its citizens to mandate that parents cede their parental responsibilitiesto the state. Mandatory state rearing of childrenis one of the hallmark moves of fascistic states from Sparta to the Third Reich and for the same reasons that others are offering here: to protect the state, to make sure that children "grow up right," and so forth.
Thankfully, in this country, we value the freedom of individuality even at the risk that some children won't "grow up right," or will have ideas that do not accord with those of the majority. Our freedom is too precious to be traded wholesale.
I think for me it's less about formal education (high school, college, degrees attained) and more about the intelligence and knowledge acquired by the parent that is home schooling.
With that in mind there should be a proficiency test that is required before a person can home school. I know a lot of people will holler about government sticking their nose in where it doesn't belong, but an uneducated adult teaching a child is not helping, but hindering that child. And as I constantly hear "It's about the child", not the parent, whether they are teaching their own children or taking them to a soccer game.
Entering the business world after going through the the grind mill of public schooling is bad enough, but doing it after being home schooled has to be a major culture shock and because of that the home-schooled child needs a much better education to offset the difference.
So there's proof on both sides of non traditional learning. And what do you think you prove with this?
I'm just me and I can name three families that travel the country doing civil war reinactments and they traditionally school. They just go during the summer, on weekends and breaks. The stuff you're laying claim to for homeschoolers is open to all who care to do them, no homeschooling required. I have plenty of pictures of us doing non traditional educational activities and I've never homeschooled. Some are of activities done during school and some with us as a family so you've proved nothing.
The truth is, the only things homeschoolers are exposed to are what their parents thought to expose them to. My kids have what their parents expose them to and what the school, their teachers and their peers expose them to (I didn't include homeschooling peers becuase their experiences are equally controlled and limited by parents). For all of us, choosing some activities rules out others so no child gets every experience. That's where interacting with peers on a dailiy basis really comes in handy. Kids talk about their different experiences, give each other ideas and most importantly, challgenge each others beliefs.
And I never said anyone else couldn't use the stats here. Where'd you get that from my post? I simply said they counter the accusation against me that I need to get out and onto other boards. You're really stretching here to have something negative to say.
*Someone (or several someones) said "homeschoolers exist in a vacuum."
*Someone (and at this point I don't even remember who) said "you only visit the Education forum."
*You got offended and said "See, I have proof that I don't only visit the Education forum."
*I pointed out that homeschoolers do not live in a vacuum, and have proof (by way of photos) that they get out and about. This was to counter the accusation that homeschoolers don't leave their homes.
*You said "so waht, other kids do that too, not just homeschoolers!"
*That's when I pointed out that the CD stats do not only apply to you either, but they still "prove" that you post elsewhere.
I was not being negative at all. You just don't seem to understand my point! It's not about whether you post in other forums, and it's not about whether public schooled children participate in Civil War reenactments. It's about whether homeschoolers live in a vacuum. Photos prove otherwise.
I've often said that my children's job is to grow up and separate from me. It's their job to form bonds with peers and leave their parents behind. To become the people they were meant to be not what I want them to be.
Exactly. So if they can get a better education, the sooner they can, the stronger the relationships and the more responsible the young adult in whatever they choose to do in life.
A really good book that covers the importance of peers is "The Nurture Assumption". It's my job to prepare my kids to leave my home and enter society with their peers. They need to break away from my family and form families of thier own. They'll come home to visit but most of their lives will be lived separate from me. It's that life I have to prepare them for.
Exactly. Why do you think that homeschooled kids do not have friends, time away from parents, and their own my space pages?
I think kids need their beliefs challenged. Their horizons broadened. They need to fight fights, learn to get up when they fall and how to nurse a bruised ego. They need to learn how to handle it when they are not the best. They need to learn they are no more special than the next person. They need to learn lots of things that are learned best by getting out there, forming bonds with peers and experiencing life outside of my home. My preference is that they have the opportunity to do this while I'm still a soft place for them to land.
Public schools do not challenge beliefs since it will certainly offend someone. My kids experience this much much younger than most kids their age. With no hugging, zero tolerance a the public school, the only thing they are going to learn is that even if they've been singled out on the play ground and beat by 3 other kids without once laying a finger on them, they will also be disaplined, taught that self defense is a bad thing and no one will be their to hug them to make them feel secure.
My kids are definitely breaking away, forming their own beliefs and starting to live their own lives. As they are supposed to. As they prove themselves ready, I give them more and more freedom until the day comes they walk out that door and into their own lives separate from me. My toughest job is letting go of the hands I've held for so long and it's best for them if I let go a little at a time as they grow.
And we place much more in our children's hands so it is much more difficult to hold them for nearly as long, because their level of understanding is so much higher and their will to go and explore new things is much higher.
What has been really surprising is what I've learned along the way here. One big suprise was how much I learned form my children's DCP. When my kids were born, I thought I was hand picked by mother nature to raise them and scared that leaving them in day care was going to be bad for them. Turns out it was the best thing we could have done. They learned a lot and their parents learned a lot in the process. There's nothing like having experts in your life to help you figure things out.
We thought the same would happen for us...until the day care provider told us that, even though I got a mere three hours a day with my daughter, she would have to placed with her after spending just one hour will her...just enough time to feed, bath and dress her for daycare. Some life. What a way to experience parenting. Then said daycare provider threw the "I'm the expert, I've done this for 23 years" crap in our face when said the reason our daughter would scream whenever she tried to touch her is because she didn't like to be coddled, did not sleep in a crib, no longer wore diapers, ate at the table on her own with a fork, and did not want her treating her like a baby. She actually lost it on me when I suggest a good way to gain her trust might be to put the tippy cup away and hand her a real glass just like her parents do at home. She didn't want to deal with a mess, regardless that our daughter didn't make any at home. So we gave her the car cup, one of those better-for-the-teeth collapsible straw cups. When I said that it was recommended by her dentist, she lost it on me. Yup. An "expert" taught me to take my daughter home and place her into the hands of my SIL's when we needed it.
I went online to look up day care red flags and one of them was if your kid screams and cries upon arrival after the intial introduciton period or tries to run away, which she did whenever I let her out of the car.
Toddlers need more one on one attention where they can learn and grow with no more than a couple of kids to play sometimes. Daycare leaves the child to learn on their own and that is seen in the behavior problems kids are having, kids wearing diapers past age three, not learning table manners, never learning to play independently, ect. To me, its neglect, and the difference in emotional and mental stability of our children at those ages compared to children who have always been in daycare is remarkable and quite obvious. If there is one statement I've heard more than any as a parent thus far is..."I wish my kid could do that by their selves."
[quote] They single out kids with learning problems, [quote]
And you do not think that does not lead to other kids realizing it and making a bigger deal out of it? There are more problems with this than not. Great example, my DD probably had dyslexia. Now I was ready to run out and get her labeled, though spelling was her only really bad issue. We found a program and figured we'd give it a try first. Now no would ever be the wiser as she is spelling beyond her grade level just like every other subject. She also does not know that there is anything "wrong" with her so her confidence is flying high and thinks that spelling, like math, is boring because it is too easy, even though she only get 15 minutes a day, which she learns 50 new words.
I think the feds are not proactive enough sometimes. I think, from reading some of the books by women who have escaped the FLDS (Fundie Mormons), that there should be a way to test children in such environments on a regular basis to see that they are being taught adequately.
These people are just creepy. By the way, I did see some people like these givng out flyers to kids across the street from our school when growing up as kids were heading home with no adult there to tell them it was creepy and cultic. Instead, they had to find out at home, from their parents, without the school there or the kids to challenge the belief. I bet they got a more honest review from mom and dad than the schools "we can talk about it" policy.
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