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As I've said before, when you're looking at something that only those who succeed continue to do through to graduation, you ought to see spectacular results. Where are they? ACT/SAT scores are the standard to compare high schools. Using those, they're not there. I guarantee if I homeschooled my kids, they'd score more like 5+ points above average on the ACT but I'm willing to bet they'll score better than that with a combination of educated and trained teachers AND their parents as opposed to just their parents so public school is where they are. I'll take all the help I can get making sure my kids get the best education possible. I don't want them to settle for only what I know to teach them.
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I'm so sorry that you missed my previous post on this issue! Here, I'll be happy to reprint it for you, and hopefully for others (if they are interested).
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Let's take a look at some interesting information available here.
As you can see, for the available data, homeschoolers consistently score significantly higher on both the ACT and the SAT. Though it is accurate to say that homeschoolers "only" score one or two points higher on the ACT (I notice you have not addressed the SAT), it's important to remember that because the top score on the ACT is only 36, the difference of even a few points is significant. Compared to the SAT, for example, a score of 21 on the ACT correlates to a score of 990 on the SAT, but a score of 22.5 --"only" a 1.5-point difference correlates to a score of 1050 -- a sixty-point difference. Please feel free to evaluate my source: it's from the College Board's own website..
Allow me to point out another issue too: that the ACT and SAT are both being taken by, generally speaking, the students in our nation who are college-bound. This implies very strongly that these students are the most academically successful in our nation -- they are not, for the most part, dropouts or academic failures, but rather (logic suggests) students who have experienced academic success and wish to pursue their educations. Many are from wealthy families; most are from the middle and upper middle classes; most have families who are invested (financially and otherwise) in their child's education. Matched against these students, homeschoolers consistently and measurably outperform their peers.
Do they get all 36s? No, but if they did, that would be so statistically anomalous that my first thought would be, "The test is flawed." Out of 1.3 million ACT test-takers in 2007, do you know how many students scored a perfect 36?
314.
I'm no mathematician, but that seems like around .00276% to me.
Bottom line, your insistence that homeschoolers don't make the grade is sounding less and less persuasive.
I'm so sorry that you missed my previous post on this issue! Here, I'll be happy to reprint it for you, and hopefully for others (if they are interested).
*************************************************
Let's take a look at some interesting information available here.
As you can see, for the available data, homeschoolers consistently score significantly higher on both the ACT and the SAT. Though it is accurate to say that homeschoolers "only" score one or two points higher on the ACT (I notice you have not addressed the SAT), it's important to remember that because the top score on the ACT is only 36, the difference of even a few points is significant. Compared to the SAT, for example, a score of 21 on the ACT correlates to a score of 990 on the SAT, but a score of 22.5 --"only" a 1.5-point difference correlates to a score of 1050 -- a sixty-point difference. Please feel free to evaluate my source: it's from the College Board's own website..
Allow me to point out another issue too: that the ACT and SAT are both being taken by, generally speaking, the students in our nation who are college-bound. This implies very strongly that these students are the most academically successful in our nation -- they are not, for the most part, dropouts or academic failures, but rather (logic suggests) students who have experienced academic success and wish to pursue their educations. Many are from wealthy families; most are from the middle and upper middle classes; most have families who are invested (financially and otherwise) in their child's education. Matched against these students, homeschoolers consistently and measurably outperform their peers.
Do they get all 36s? No, but if they did, that would be so statistically anomalous that my first thought would be, "The test is flawed." Out of 1.3 million ACT test-takers in 2007, do you know how many students scored a perfect 36?
314.
I'm no mathematician, but that seems like around .00276% to me.
Bottom line, your insistence that homeschoolers don't make the grade is sounding less and less persuasive.
I've already addressed this. One to two points when you are comparing one system where only the successes are tested to one where everyone is tested is nothing to write home about even when the scoring is out of 36. Demographics alone would predict that and then some. This is not proof that homeschooling works. It's just demographics at work and it may not even be what demographics alone would yield. At best, it's meaningless. At worst, it's less than it should be and an indicationt that homeschooling doesn't work.
If I dropped the bottom 20% of kids from our school (homeschoolers have the option of quitting if homeschooling isn't working for them), I'd be willing to bet the average would go up more than a point or two on the ACT. Homeschooled kids are cherry picked. They come from a higher demographic and if it doesn't work for you, you quit. Only the successes make it as far as to take the ACT and have it count for homeschooling. A 1-2 point difference does not prove homeschooling is better. Separate out the same demographic from traditionally schooled children. Only have the ones for whom traditional schooling works for take the test and still have that 1-2 point difference and THEN you'll have something to write home about.
I don't know how it is where you are but here all students take the ACT. The ACT combined with the MME and our graduation rate is the report card by which schools are graded. As far as I know, homeschoolers are not required to take the ACT here. Of course, they would if they were college bound. Which gives another reason homeschoolers would be expected to do better on the ACT. Even before it was required, more than just the college bound crowd took the test. In fact, that was why there was a disparity between scores of boys and girls. More girls took the test. Girls were more likely to take it even if they weren't going to college. Now everyone takes it.
The test isn't flawed because only a few get perfect scores. It wouldn't be much of a test if 36's were common. This type of test should have few perfect scores. However, scores in the upper 20's and lower 30's should be fairly common. I had several students who scored above 30 in my classes last year.
It would be interesting to see stats on the percentage of homeschooled children taking the ACT by state. 2008 scores are available on line by state right now. HSLDA only reports on 7858 homeschool students taking the ACT and they don't say if they're all in one year. What percentage of homeschooling graduates would 7858 students be? Nationwide, 43% of graduates took the test last year. I'm in one of two states where 100% of students took the test. Our averages are, not surprisingly, below average. Even if 100% of homeschool graduates took the test, you're still looking at only the success stories taking the test because anyone for whom homeschooling didn't work for already quit and sent their kids back to public school.
You are correct that data is skewed upwards by the fact that the college bound are more likely to take the ACT but that goes for homeschoolers as well. Looking at demographics, I would expect that a higher percentage of homeschooled students would be college bound. So, again, I'd expect higher scores. When there are lots of reasons one would expect higher scores that have nothing to do with the quality of homeschooling, it's really silly to think you can claim 1-2 points higher on the ACT means anything other than demographics is stacked in favor of homeschoolers. It would be interesting to see percentage college bound and percentages taking the ACT though.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 07-26-2009 at 01:47 PM..
Just wanted to add that, nationally, 43% of graduates take the ACT. Since only about 25% actually go to college, more than just the college bound take the test.
If anyone has links to stats on percentage of homeschooled kids going to college (statistically speaking, I expect this number to be higher than normal simply because homeschooled kids are more likely to have an educated mother) and the percentage that take the ACT, I'd appreciate it. I can't seem to find anything online.
A person would have to have led a very sheltered life not to know that there are predators and they are just as 'nice' as the good people who post on this forum - but they are after your children.
I would gladly allow my child to be interviewed and tested to ensure that I were covering all proper grounds with them and also that I respected a process that can also save a poor child from being mistreated.
I don't believe more "process" saves anyone. Of course, I may have a particularly jaded view, having actually worked with sexual assault survivors in a psychiatric setting, and living in Florida where CPS has been known to not only misplace children entirely, but to be so inept that their charges die under their supervision. If I wanted incompetent bureaucrats mired in paperwork in charge of my kids' education, I'd send them to the local schools.
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Originally Posted by goldengrain
If I have no guilt, why should I object?
A healthy respect for the US Constitution and the freedoms guaranteed therein, for one. YMMV.
No, it doesn't. It recognizes that homeschooling can be done in isolation. That the safety net of frequent exposure to others who are required to report abuse isn't there.
Reality is, every time I send my kids to school, they are evaluated to determine if there is possible abuse because they are seen by others frequently enough that those others would notice something was wrong. Why should homeschoolers not have to submit to the same scrutiny? Why are they entitled to more privacy in raising their children than anyone else? You are asking for special treatment of homeschoolers.
As a teacher, I am a mandatory reporter. I am required to report anything suspicious. Who are the mandatory reporters that homeschooled children see when it's not controlled by parents? Doctors are but it's easy enough to not abuse Johnny for a few days before a doctor's appointment so bruises can heal.
Homeschoolers choose not to place their children in schools. In so doing, they bypass one system the government has set up to detect and report child abuse. Some other system needs to be put in place to replace it.
Oh, please. The local school system is incompetent to prevent assaults happening on their own watch.
Homeschoolers choose not to place their children in schools. In so doing, they bypass one system the government has set up to detect and report child abuse. Some other system needs to be put in place to replace it.
"Schools are not meant to be all things to all people"...well, until they are, I guess.
I think we, the people, owe our kids this safety net as well as a good education. I don't think it is asking too much that kids who are home schooled are tested once a year to ensure that they are not falling behind, and that those who have the capacity for higher education are not short changed when it comes time to enroll in college.
That's already in place, Goldie. You're a little behind the curve.
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Originally Posted by goldengrain
I think parents and educators should be working together for the benefit of kids and not fighting and that my requests are reasonable.
Your requests would probably sound more creditable if you actually did some homework (no pun intended) before you made sweeping statements about how to "fix" a system you have no knowledge of. You assume it's broken because you "heard of" or "it could happen". That's not only illogical, it's irresponsible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain
The people posting here are probably doing a very credible job in schooling their children. I will bet my boots that they/you are not representative of the entire population.
This is as insulting when applied to homeschoolers as it is when other individuals are told "well, you're one of the good colored people".
Figure out why. It involves the words "stereotypy" and "paternalism".
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain
The few states that require some sort of reporting do not ask for independent testing but that the parent test the child and send the results in. This in no way can be considered acceptable. What is preventing a perve from just filling in the test result himself?
That's not true (syn: "baldfaced lie"). We've actually just finished our evaluation, and I can speak with authority on that one.
You need to check again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain
I think the current system has an horrendous amount of loopholes for lazy or mentally unbalanced parents and does nothing to protect children.
I don't like the government interfering in my life, either, but I do believe we all have a stake in the future of this country and we certainly do not need to experiment with that generation. They are going to have to compete with people from all over the world who are especially prolific in math and science.
Hence my decision to provide an education superior to the one our county deems "appropriate". By the way, do you know that the school board will state that they are not legally required to provide the "best" education, or the "optimal" education-- only an "appropriate" one? They probably don't say that to gen ed kids, but I hear it several times a year. Everytime I go to a meeting as an advocate, in fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain
I certainly do not think it is an example of government going over the top to have a fair check on the progress of home schooled children. I also think children should be instructed what to do and who to call if someone - anyone - touches them wrong.
Well, I agree, but I hardly think it's appropriate to ask parents to wait until a child is five or six and then expect a stranger to do it. Kids need to know that sort of thing at a much younger age. I like the "Red flag touch/ green flag touch" social stories, myself. I think they're easily understandable and easily remembered by littles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain
A parent's job is to rear strong and well adjusted and independent children. I, for one, would appreciate cooperation to that end.
I don't expect your cooperation in rearing my children. I prefer someone who shares my goals, dreams, and values, not someone who sees bogeymen in every corner.
Homeschoolers are bypassing the mandatory reporters public school children see appx. 175 days out of the year. Do you really think none at all compares to 175 days?
School, obviously, cannot serve this function or any other in the summer. That, however, is not an excuse to subject some children to having only a handful of days when they see mandatory reporters during the year. As it is, even if we start having unannounced inspections of homeschooled homes, children will still only have a few contacts with mandatory reporters that are not arranged by the parents. The risk of an abuser being found out is still greater for traditionally schooled kids because they see mandatory reporters roughly half the year. You don't think abusive parents only abuse in the summer do you?
175 days a year doesn't cover 365 but you don't have to. What you need is frequent enough contacts with mandatory reporters to create a safety net. 175 days is WAY better than none. If you're smart enough to home school, you should be able to do the math.
The reason children under six are most likely victims is because there aren't mandatory reporters in this age group. Your example shows the need to have them both for this group AND homeschoolers who have created a situation where their kids don't see mandatory reporters on a regular basis.
SO you are saying that since my children spend better than 50% of their time out of home, half of each week-day and evening-in the public around a wide range of people including teachers, child pyschologists, social workers, ect, SOMBODY will have the opportunity to see if my children are abused and it will be mandatory to report it?
That's fine with me. Since my boys run around in shorts and no shirt most of the day every day, SOMEBODY would have noticed abuse and reported it by now if it were true. I guess in that sense it can be pretty safe to say that I do not abuse my childern. As often as we homeschoolers leave their kids with various teachers; ie sports, dance, swimming, ect where our children's bodies are bared to their instructors (in whom we place our trust to not take advantage of such), or trusted with other homeschoolers to events in which they sometimes spend the night, with more than enough opportunity to see bruises on their bodies or ask questions if our children say something worth questioning, it is pretty safe to say that homeschoolers are would be best protected of kids. They have a stronger SOCIAL NETWORK that works better than a teacher who often overlooks red flags because they are not associated with the child's "other" life.
<<<BY THE WAY>>> If there is a homeschooler in our area not part of a co-op, it is heard and known. If isolation is the main goal of that family, the homeschoolers would first try to get them more involved into a group with similar educating philosophies. If that does not work or there are "red flags" surrounding the family, the homeschoolers would report them faster than any teacher.
I think we, the people, owe our kids this safety net as well as a good education. I don't think it is asking too much that kids who are home schooled are tested once a year to ensure that they are not falling behind, and that those who have the capacity for higher education are not short changed when it comes time to enroll in college.
I think parents and educators should be working together for the benefit of kids and not fighting and that my requests are reasonable.
The people posting here are probably doing a very credible job in schooling their children. I will bet my boots that they/you are not representative of the entire population.
The few states that require some sort of reporting do not ask for independent testing but that the parent test the child and send the results in. This in no way can be considered acceptable. What is preventing a perve from just filling in the test result himself?
I think the current system has an horrendous amount of loopholes for lazy or mentally unbalanced parents and does nothing to protect children.
I don't like the government interfering in my life, either, but I do believe we all have a stake in the future of this country and we certainly do not need to experiment with that generation. They are going to have to compete with people from all over the world who are especially prolific in math and science.
I certainly do not think it is an example of government going over the top to have a fair check on the progress of home schooled children. I also think children should be instructed what to do and who to call if someone - anyone - touches them wrong.
A parent's job is to rear strong and well adjusted and independent children. I, for one, would appreciate cooperation to that end.
If there is a good thing to be said with this, it is your passion to protect children from abuse. That can be commended. It makes me wonder though what you endured as a child.
It is true that some "perv" could abuse the system. They all do in some way don't they? Please remember that the ones that are "good" at it know that to have as many years at it as possible, they would need to live as normal a lifestyle as possible to try and keep those red flags from poking up. Homeschooliong would raise the eyebrows of those who alraedy have their doubts about them. Homeschooling, as all of us homeschoolers already know, already have people looking at us. I doubt many of us would abuse our children anyway with such a strong passion to keep them from the abuses of school and our passions around quality education, but it would be impossible to hide it. It is not like we need to hide anything. We have so many people in our faces that it would be nearly impossible, unless we decided to join a cult and run off to some other country but that is not the goal of most homeschoolers.
Again, most states require no reporting of a child's progress, and those few that do only ask that a parent send in a test result, which keep that door for abuse wide open.
We have no idea of the scholastic achievement of home schoolers because the vast majority need undergo no testing whatsoever.
There should be some place where a child is tested once a year to ensure that learning IS going on and to also try and prevent an abusive situation.
I can see a situation in which a family comes here from a third world country and keeps their children in a back room making widgets all day. Who's to know?
The current situation is rife for abuse and must be rectified.
What was it that famous man said, 'Trust, but verify'?
I actually had to look at the time of day you posted this....what's running on the TV in the background??????
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