Obama Wants More School, Shorter Break (credits, test, children, start)

[Mach50]

Not sure if it has been posted:

COMPARING EDUCATION SYSTEMS



Understanding the importance of education to engineering and technology jobs, Compton began to research the different approaches to studying in the United States, India and China. What he found was that American high school students spent far less time on academics than their counterparts. A longer school year, Saturday classes and many hours spent studying outside the classroom provide advantages for China and India.

2 million minutes: how high school students in China, India and Indiana are spending their time.


Also test scores before and after the summer break, prove that poor kids lose knowledge on summer vacation, while rich kids gain.

[delta07]

Originally Posted by Mach50

Also test scores before and after the summer break, prove that poor kids lose knowledge on summer vacation, while rich kids gain.

This is very true, but do we need to extend the school year for all? I worked at one of those poor schools, and we had summer school for the kids that were behind, as well as enrichment programs for those kids that were deemed "smart", but wanted a little something extra. I think parents that are well educated themselves will provide a learning environment during the summer, while those that are not, will not. Again, a one size fits all approach just will not work. I'm not opposed to summer school for those kids that really need it, but I don't think every child should have to go.

[delta07]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

You do like to hang onto your extremes to try and prove your case. First, the EARLIEST bed time for a child I know is 8:30. The majority I know have bedtimes of 9:00 or 9:30 which gives them 91/2 to 10 hours of sleep if they get up at 7:00 in order to be at the bus stop at 8:00 adn school at 8:30 (schools are all walking distance here so that's not an issue for us)

Second, how much of that school day is already play time? When my kids were in elementary school, they had morning recess, lunch recess and afternoon recess. They also get to socialize at lunch time. Plus there's game time in gym. So, before they even get off of that bus, they've had an hour plus of the play time you think they're so short on.

I don't know a single elementary school child who, regularly, spends an hour a night on homework or chores plus dinner. Dinner is maybe 20 minutes, if that, chores another 15 - 20 (what in the world would a parent have an elementary school child doing every day that would result in dinner and chores taking an hour a day?) and homework usually works out to be about 10 minutes per grade level so you're talking 6th grade before you're expecting an hour a night. Second, If you'd been following what's being said, one of the things baked into that longer day is time for homework. One of the advantages is that kids get to do their homework in an environment where they ALL have help not just the ones who have parents who can and will help. They aren't taking homework home in this scenario so they're gaining an hour a night by your calculations.

The question you need to answer is how much play time do kids need and why? The truth is, elementary children get a lot of play time baked into their school day. Between recess, art, gym and play like activities teachers do with them, I'd guess, a couple of hours a day. My kids never had homework. They were always able to do their work in school but they're quite a bit brighter than average. I'll concede that there are probably kids who do take an hour a night to complete what my kids finished at school but the answer here is a separate track program for those kids, not keeping the school day short for everyone because your kids take an hour longer than mine to do their work.

Ivory, it seems like you are fortunate enough to live and work in a well off school district. Where I live, and the districts I have worked, were not so fortunate. They cut recess down to two a day, the first one only lasting 10 minutes. By the time kids got outside to play, they had about 5 minutes before we were lining up again to go inside. Then during lunch, they had to sit quietly and eat and wait until their entire class was done eating before being excused for recess. We had 30 minutes for lunch and recess, so by the time the kids were done eating they had 10 minutes of play.

In many school districts, including the ones I have taught and substituted in, art, music, and even PE classes have been cut out of a specials program. It has been left up to the classroom teacher to teach those subjects as well. As a classroom teacher yourself, I'm sure you realize that those subjects are not being taught. I was lucky to get to one "real" art project and quarter.

Now you might say that extending the school day will allow us more time to add those subjects in, and that could be right. However, with the push on raising stardarized test scores, I know this will not be the case. Instead, more time will be devoted to "teaching to the test."

I agree with you on the homework issue. If that time is added into the classroom time, then it will definitely benefit the kids. However, I also see a situation where more homework than necessary is given because eventually teachers will view this homework time as additional classroom time and still send work home with kids.

[HappyTexan]

Originally Posted by delta07

I agree with you on the homework issue. If that time is added into the classroom time, then it will definitely benefit the kids. However, I also see a situation where more homework than necessary is given because eventually teachers will view this homework time as additional classroom time and still send work home with kids.

It's called homework for a reason. It's work you do at home that night to reinforce and train your brain to what was learned that day.

You can only spoon feed so much at the K-12 level. Once they get into college they will be hard pressed to find the same hand holding they got all through elementary-middle-high.

I've been taking classes at the community college. Since they accept all, many HS graduates go there. The first semester I went I was shocked at how quick the parking lots/classes thinned out after the first two weeks.

Now, in my 4th semester I'm not shocked at all. Why my last class (College Algebra) ended up with 5 of us at the end. The first day of class was overflowing with more people than seats. Here I was after 20 years OUT OF SCHOOL while recent HS graduates dropped the class because it was beyond them.

It's a more fundamental problem than "more hours".

[delta07]

Originally Posted by HappyTexan

It's called homework for a reason. It's work you do at home that night to reinforce and train your brain to what was learned that day.

You can only spoon feed so much at the K-12 level. Once they get into college they will be hard pressed to find the same hand holding they got all through elementary-middle-high.

I've been taking classes at the community college. Since they accept all, many HS graduates go there. The first semester I went I was shocked at how quick the parking lots/classes thinned out after the first two weeks.

Now, in my 4th semester I'm not shocked at all. Why my last class (College Algebra) ended up with 5 of us at the end. The first day of class was overflowing with more people than seats. Here I was after 20 years OUT OF SCHOOL while recent HS graduates dropped the class because it was beyond them.

It's a more fundamental problem than "more hours".

You are absolutely right, and I'm not opposed to homework. As a teacher myself, I assign it and expect it to be completed at home. However, what I'm trying to say is that will extra hours added to the day to complete homework, then we shouldn't be sending more home at the end of the night. But like you said as well, it is definitely a more fundamental problem than justing adding more hours to the day.

[Mach50]

I was just on a conference call at work, mostly Engineering, Physics and Math majors. All overwhelming in favor of the full school year. I am just saying, we know Americans are falling behind and see it everyday....

"Hello Asian and Indian workers! Here have my job when I retire, nobody wants it in my country"

Another discussion point we had: To think the very people who dislike the full school year and more aggressive learning plans, are the same who are anti-immigration. That just won't work.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by Mach50

Not sure if it has been posted:

2 million minutes: how high school students in China, India and Indiana are spending their time.


Also test scores before and after the summer break, prove that poor kids lose knowledge on summer vacation, while rich kids gain.

People cry about wanting to even the playing field for poor kids but when someone suggests a longer school year, which will cost more, they go hide.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by delta07

Ivory, it seems like you are fortunate enough to live and work in a well off school district. Where I live, and the districts I have worked, were not so fortunate. They cut recess down to two a day, the first one only lasting 10 minutes. By the time kids got outside to play, they had about 5 minutes before we were lining up again to go inside. Then during lunch, they had to sit quietly and eat and wait until their entire class was done eating before being excused for recess. We had 30 minutes for lunch and recess, so by the time the kids were done eating they had 10 minutes of play.

In many school districts, including the ones I have taught and substituted in, art, music, and even PE classes have been cut out of a specials program. It has been left up to the classroom teacher to teach those subjects as well. As a classroom teacher yourself, I'm sure you realize that those subjects are not being taught. I was lucky to get to one "real" art project and quarter.

Now you might say that extending the school day will allow us more time to add those subjects in, and that could be right. However, with the push on raising stardarized test scores, I know this will not be the case. Instead, more time will be devoted to "teaching to the test."

I agree with you on the homework issue. If that time is added into the classroom time, then it will definitely benefit the kids. However, I also see a situation where more homework than necessary is given because eventually teachers will view this homework time as additional classroom time and still send work home with kids.

It's not an issue of wealthy or poor districts. It's a function of how many school days you have. They count minutes of school per year. So some schools have cut recess so they don't have to add days. They used to count days but too many districts were scheduling half days and counting them as days.


I see the extra time being used two ways. As homework time for kids who need support to get their homework done. Kids who don't have parents who can/will help them, who don't have access to computers at home and who don't have a good environment to study in at home will benefit. Second as enrichment time for the kids who are already getting their homework done in class. They might come home with more work but it will be challenging work they are not getting now. I see a longer school day as allowing our struggling learners to keep up and our best and brightest to soar. I don't think the teachers will just, arbitrarily, start seeing the extra time as extra teaching time (unless it's needed) and send home even more work. Remember, we have to grade everything we assign . I can't keep up now.

[tgbwc]

Originally Posted by Mach50

Another discussion point we had: To think the very people who dislike the full school year and more aggressive learning plans, are the same who are anti-immigration. That just won't work.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

I would like to add that I have never met anyone who is anti-immigration. I know people who are against illegal entry into the country (illegal aliens), but not legal immigrants.

[Infamous92]

How about a 13th grade?

I know this has little to do with improving test scores but since a lot of kids in other countries know more by the time they finish high school how about adding another year to school.

As a 12th Grader I hate this idea but to the people who are against adding hours and/or more days to school how do you feel about this?