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Old 11-02-2009, 05:20 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,113 posts, read 16,694,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grapico View Post
Yes, it is how well you are able to deal with what your career dishes out, not what LIFE dishes out. You enter it by your own choice, and there are no real standards...

Career is not linked with satisfaction in life, it is only so if you convince yourself if moving up the career ladder is a goal of yours. This isn't an intrinsic value though. For me working in some corporate career climbing a ladder would do absolutely nothing for my self worth, it might even take it in the opposite way.

Who is judged by their careers? I certainly wouldn't judge somebody by their career, that to me is absolutely absurd.

Leading or following is only that, leading or following. You are no less of a person for either. There is really not much value either way in them either.

I wouldn't say they say much about you, most people choose their career when they first go to college at 18, hardly with the foresight necessary to envision future job markets or occupations. I wouldn't particularly like any career, I have multiple interests and would never try to define somebody by their career. The only reason I even participate is that I am in a mixed capitalistic system which forces me to work. The government and the elites already own everything, even owning the land, the government still owns it and you must pay said taxes on it, so you must come up with some type of income. They want you to participate, even if they say they were founded on individual liberties. In better times I might live off the land, produce a few vegetables and write all day as a scholar, spend more time with my family, or possibly stop an invading barbarian force. None of those choices hold much more weight than another though...

Often people are more a product of society than they would like to think.
How well you deal with what life dishes out depends on what life dishes out. As far as I know, there is no correlation between IQ and how well you deal with what life dishes out. Some pretty smart people have snapped under what life dished out to them and become mass murderers. Nothing correlates to everything. The only measure of how well you deal with what life dishes out is how well you dealt with what life dished out.

By our early 20's we have a pretty good idea what we like. We may not know where that career will lead but we're in position to make choices in general directions. How your career tracks from there is a reflection of you and your abilities or, at least, your desires. Perhaps you have no desire to accomplish anything so you don't. In that case, who cares what your IQ is. It didn't do anything for you.

The fact is, most of us will be pretty mundane WRT our careers and that includes some very high IQ people. A few of us will shine and that will include some average IQ people. IQ isn't what determines how we fare as adults. Other factors are more important. A person with an IQ of 120 can be just as successful in all walks of life as a person with an IQ of 140. I've seen it over and over and the IQ ranges that are reported by career also show this. As adults, IQ doesn't mean much except at the extremes. A low IQ may limit your career choices, but there appears to be higher happiness in life found in low IQ ranges so there's a nice trade off but high IQ doesn't guarantee you'll do well in any aspect of life either.

Seriously, the only difference I see in formerly gifted children and those of us who were never declared gifted is many of them seem to be trying to find that specialness they had as a child again. They seem lost without it. My best friend never adapted to being normal as an adult. She still sees herself as a genius but nothing in her life speaks to that genius except her IQ score so no one accepts her as a genius. Sadly, I think what happened to her is she got used to things coming easily and didn't know how to deal with it once they required real work. Another friend who never liked her high IQ status has fared better. She likes blending in. My brother has done fine. While his career and life don't reflect his IQ (except that he is very successful), he's happy in life and with his choices. He chose to drop out of college because he decided it just wasn't for him. He's happy as a mechanic (mechanics BTW have one of the highest life happiness ratings).

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 11-02-2009 at 05:35 AM..
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:13 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Actually, how good you are in your career is a measure of how well you're able to deal with whatever your career dishes out. Career is also linked with satisfaction in life. Choice of career and success in your career says a lot about who you are and what you are able to handle. Do you like challenges, or do you shy away from them? Do you lead or are you a follower? Do you like to think outside of the box or prefer to be told what to think? There is a reason we're judged by our careers.
Not necessarily. The simple fact that you're currently a teacher doesn't accurately reflect the path that you've taken to get there. Especially in these times of multiple career paths, side trips, and even simultaneous multiple careers, simply know ing someone is a teacher or a police officer or an administrative assistant reflects one facet of their lives. Which works, I guess, if you or your companions are not particularly faceted. Most people I've met are more than the sum of one part.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,113 posts, read 16,694,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
Not necessarily. The simple fact that you're currently a teacher doesn't accurately reflect the path that you've taken to get there. Especially in these times of multiple career paths, side trips, and even simultaneous multiple careers, simply know ing someone is a teacher or a police officer or an administrative assistant reflects one facet of their lives. Which works, I guess, if you or your companions are not particularly faceted. Most people I've met are more than the sum of one part.
Why does it need to? One has nothing to do with the other. I didn't say it reflects the path to get there. I said that how our careers track is a reflection of how well we handled that career. What we did before that career is irrelevent to that career. How well I handeled teaching reflects my abilities. What I did before I taught, unless it prepared me for teaching, is irrelevent.

What difference does it make if my engineering career doesn't account for my previous career? None. My engineering career started the day I took my first co-op assignment. What difference does it make that I had a career prior to teaching WRT teaching? Very little. It only means that I click immediately with top 10%. I'm like any other teacher with the other 90% of the students. What you did before only matters to the extent that it impacts what you do today.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:22 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grapico View Post

Leading or following is only that, leading or following. You are no less of a person for either. There is really not much value either way in them either.


::nod::
"Leader or follower" constructs only measure those who are willing to march in line in the first place.
It also assumes linear time-- and then still doesn't work if not everyone's at the same point. Of course John the intern is going to be subordinate in rank to Fred the CEO. He's fresh out of school and 35 years younger. How do you make a quantitative comparison there? And how do you compare the two if John chucks it all in two years to paint oils in Fiji? For that matter, what's the point of comparing at all?

Wouldn't it be easier just to lay them out on the table and get a ruler?
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Some pretty smart people have snapped under what life dished out to them and become mass murderers.
But exceptionally GOOD ones. <g>
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:27 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,113 posts, read 16,694,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
::nod::
"Leader or follower" constructs only measure those who are willing to march in line in the first place.
It also assumes linear time-- and then still doesn't work if not everyone's at the same point. Of course John the intern is going to be subordinate in rank to Fred the CEO. He's fresh out of school and 35 years younger. How do you make a quantitative comparison there? And how do you compare the two if John chucks it all in two years to paint oils in Fiji? For that matter, what's the point of comparing at all?

Wouldn't it be easier just to lay them out on the table and get a ruler?
There's no need to. Over time, a hand full of people will rise to the top as leaders. The rest will be lost in the crowd of followers. Give it time, and cream rises to the top.

Age is considered. No one thinks twice about a 20 something intern being an intern, however, if he's 50 something and still an intern, they'd be scratching their heads. People are smart enough to separate those who just started from those who have been in the field for 30 years.

In the real world, you're ranked against those who are roughly your age with your years of experience. I say roughly because age is obvious when you look at a person but experience is not. There is a normal tracking and if you go against it, you will struggle. I'm feeling it now. A teacher my age should be established but I'm still a novice. I have to remind teachers younger than me that they are the experts.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:28 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,113 posts, read 16,694,168 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
But exceptionally GOOD ones. <g>
All I can do is shake my head here. If that's the claim to fame you have for high IQ, run with it. I find it sad. So who do you think these exceptionally good murderers with high IQ's were?
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Old 11-02-2009, 08:57 AM
 
1,122 posts, read 1,294,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Apparently, we do live in different worlds. Mine is full of formerly gifted children who have become pretty typical adults. Albeit successful but there are others with far lower IQ's who are just as successful that I count myself among. Lack of IQ didn't stop me from attaining what those who were born with more attained. My point is, IQ isn't the determinant. Hard work and experience, easily, make up for not having that IQ. I have no trouble competing with people who are gifted. I couldn't say that as a child. I can say that as an adult.

As I said before, if you take calculus at 15 and everyone else takes it at 18, what does that matter when you're all 25? Unless you keep on going past where the average person goes, they just catch up with you in time. Some do keep going but so do some people who aren't gifted. I'm one of those. I didn't take calculus at 15 but I aced it when I got to college and every other math class I took in college along with every science course I took in college and I just kept going. I wasn't fast out of the gate, like my gifted friends, but I kept going after they stopped. In the end, it didn't matter that they took college classes at 16 and I didn't. They reached their finish line first but my finish line was farther along and included much deeper material. That I continued to develop well into adulthood mattered more than the IQ I was born with.

While many of the engineers and researchers I know were formerly gifted children, many were not too. The odds may be higher of having such careers if you were but those of us who are not are not excluded by any means. What the gifted attain is also attainable by those of lesser IQ's. The gifted just get there faster, which only matters until others reach the finish line too then time allows the gap to close. By the time we had 10 years in engineering, you couldn't tell who among my classmates had been gifted and who was not. In fact, it was one of the non gifted students went the farthest. He always was willing to work harder than anyone else to get what he wanted though. THAT is what will get you someplace as an adult.

Here's a link to IQ ranges and careers. Take a look at how wide the ranges are for each career. Many who are not gifted, work right along side those who are. It really doesn't make a difference for adults. At least not in the way it does for children. It's a minor contributor at most.

IQ Ranges of Occupations - Career Planning for Students

IQ does matter to kids as it's relative to age. A child who is 10 with an IQ of 13 is three years ahead of his same aged peers. At 10 that matters a lot. I deal with this with my 11 year old. She's years ahead both academically and socially (she's that strange mix of all around gifted. There is nothing she isn't ahead in including social skills). Right now is when it does matter. By college it won't matter so much. After college, I don't expect it to matter at all. After college, she'll meet lots of people who went as far as she did from a pretty wide range of IQ's.

Perhaps you might be able to understand another analogy. My dd is gifted, among other things, in music. At 7 when she was composing and competing, she was considered a near prodigy. At 11 she has many more kids at her level so she's not so special anymore. Given time, other kids who stuck with it and worked hard were able to attain what she has. At 7 she was spectacular. At 27 she'll, likely, just be one of many good pianists. In time, the field levels because others have time to catch up to you. How fast you got there doesn't matter nearly as much as where you end up and for most gifted people, all IQ does is get them to the finish line faster where they are, later, joined by many who have lesser IQ's. 10 years out from college, you're hard pressed to look at job performance and decide who was a gifted child and who was not.
I see you sitting with a scale. On one side you place IQ; on the other you place knowledge. Since IQ can't really jump 10 points up but one can continue to obtain knowledge so one side keeps on getting heavier, so, to you, that makes them euqal. It is like saying that learning from some one like Hawkings will make you equal to him if you learn enough from him.

But that does not mean you have the ability to think to the depth of that teacher and you will always rely on learning from them. There will never be suddenly two minds who if set side by side, given the same subject to speak about and be able to think as deeply and extensively about them. The other person will. Not only that, they have to find simple words to explain it to the layman or else everything they say will never make sense. That will always be that way.
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:01 AM
 
1,122 posts, read 1,294,381 times
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Career is one of the measureables. Social status is another but you'll be hard pressed to find data linking IQ and social status.

What would you like to use as a measure of success based on IQ for adults? If people from a wide range of IQ's will be in the same careers and successful and have successful lives, exactly what is the value of a gifted IQ? Let's say my IQ is 125 and my brother's is 135 (I just know he's gifted and I am not so mine could be lower and his higher). What did his gifted IQ net him that I don't have through hard work?

The distinction is lost on adults. Only large differences in IQ matter in adulthood. 10-20 points can, easily, be made up for with a little extra effort but in kids that is not the case. In the end, it's not IQ that determines where we end up. It just doesn't matter that much as adults. However, because it is relative to age, it does matter to children. 1 year is 1/10th of a 10 year old's life and that is significant.

So far I've googled suicide rates and IQ and there is a suspected but unproven link to higher Suicide rates with higher IQ and happiness and IQ which found no correlation between IQ and happiness except that the learning disabled appear happier. I'll keep trying to find that difference in adults but I don't think I will. I know many formerly gifted children and they're pretty typical compared to the non gifted adults who achieved the same level of education. From where I sit, a little hard work makes up for lower IQ in a heartbeat.
I have already provided a link that did show that the rates were at least three times higher. It has been reported as well that the suicide rates are up to about 400% higher among non-accelerated gifted individuals when compared to their accelerated peers.
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TKramar View Post
Okay...career. Let's comment on that.

Two anecdotes. I was working at a grocery, and they did a reset of the entire store. Manager overheard me tell a customer, "I'm not too sure myself where we moved that to, but I know it's down this way. Before the reset, I would have been able to tell you right where it is."

He wanted to test me. He had pictures of the shelves before the reset in his hands, and asked, okay, what's the top left product of the jelly set. I replied "Palmalito guave jelly". I was right. That's applying intelligence to a job that purportedly doesn't require it.

Similar story happened at Home Depot. Customer came to me and asked if we had anymore of a certain product--I seem to recall it was a certain roller. I told her no, and continued to work. Customer reported me to the manager...when the manager saw I was the person being referred to, he told the customer. "Oh...he packs down the freight every day--he KNOWS what we have and what we don't here in this department."
This is a great example of the gifted potential. The higher IQ you have, the more potential you have. The higher IQ will stand out in each and every job they work at and will be more likely to be promoted. My experiences were similar. I have always been seen as "managment" material and later, have heard that my bosses thought so from my first interview with them. Sheesh, I walked into one place one day and applied. I was offered a job on the spot, starting part time but GM in training secretly with my own store in less than 6 months. I turned it down because I wasn't interested in that.

The "average bear" would complain over and over, half the them quiting over it, when they had been working for the company longer, had to teach the product to a new employee and had them promoted out from under them. It was because they lacked the IQ to actually drive a team of employees to the top, were always making excuses because they could never see how they as an individual impacted the big picture, ect. Now it was something I had pride in, working with my boys (at the place I'm thinking of there were mostly men) and watching them be promoted and becoming my boss. I had a lot of pride for them and I worked by butt off for them. Ultimately, at the end, I was my first boss's boss and we had the most trusting working relationship. We made a great team.

Another example, in adulthood, the social thing doesn't really change from school. The average people clique together and do whatever they can to sabotage the ones they think are being favored, which forces those others to "have each other's backs" when encountering situations where the average were attempting to divide and conquer that group. That made it see as though they were "the good ol' boys" or other comments of the like. The whole time the other group is standing together talking about how they don't understand what it was they did to make everyone hate them. In reality, they did absolutely nothing and the only crime against them was having a higher IQ.

I on the other hand, divided the whole group in my head on moral standings...you had the cronic liar, the sexual harrassers, the "women should't be leaders" guys, the come to work hung over group, the complainers, the two women who could all but kill to climb over the next guy, the hard workers, the think outside the boxers, the natural leaders, the thinker...and, I mustn't forget, the sociopath who kept on asking questions as to where my boss lived.

People tend to forget that if you have the IQ, you can work your way up in companies like that and ultimately make more than you would elsewhere. I know GM's of big stores that make more that $100,000 a year. If you want to focus more time on your family, you could be happy with being an assistant manager at $75,000 a year while your spouse did similar elsewhere. There is no shame in that. You do not need a PHD behind your name to make your money have more meaning.
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