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Unread 11-02-2009, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,442 posts, read 3,559,124 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
There is a normal tracking and if you go against it, you will struggle.
I am once again reminded how glad I am that your "real world" isn't mine.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 08:38 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,442 posts, read 3,559,124 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
All I can do is shake my head here. If that's the claim to fame you have for high IQ, run with it. I find it sad. So who do you think these exceptionally good murderers with high IQ's were?
::sigh::

I knew humor was wasted here.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
20,319 posts, read 13,910,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
::sigh::

I knew humor was wasted here.
Glad you find mass murderers something to laugh at.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 08:59 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
20,319 posts, read 13,910,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
I am once again reminded how glad I am that your "real world" isn't mine.
Which real world do you live in? For everyone I know, there is a normal tracking to their careers. If you haven't made it to a certain point by a certain time in service, you've hit your ceiling. What do you do that you don't have a ceiling and can decide after not advancing for, oh say, 10 years, that now you want to and it's accomodated?

Everyone I know, without exception, is judged, careerwise based on how far they made it in whatever period of time. In my past industrial experience, if you weren't on the fast track by 18 months, you never made it. If you stopped tracking normally, it was unlikely you'd get back on track. There were way more ways to derail a career than keep one going. A certain amount of vertical movement in a certain period of time was needed to stay on any track other than a dead end one. Sitting still for any period of time was seen as you having topped out. You'd have to jump through flaming hoops to get noticed after that.

The only people I've seen move up after stagnating were in critical positions and then it was just to keep them in those positions. The promotions were in name only and designed to keep them from looking for jobs elsewhere.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 09:35 AM
 
1,122 posts, read 1,158,017 times
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
How well you deal with what life dishes out depends on what life dishes out. As far as I know, there is no correlation between IQ and how well you deal with what life dishes out. Some pretty smart people have snapped under what life dished out to them and become mass murderers. Nothing correlates to everything. The only measure of how well you deal with what life dishes out is how well you dealt with what life dished out.
Mod cut - personal attack

Genes as we all know, are, to stick with the Halloween holiday, like candy. You start off with two pieces of candy. One is the best type of chocolate while the other is poisoned. You trick or treat or all night, adding genes to your bag. The individual pieces of candy represent all the different genes one person, ket us say, because I like chocolate so much, that the candy bars are the gifted genes. Tootsie rolls make you attractive, jolly ranchers make you short, ect ect.


You are really excited to go and share your candy with those a bunch of people at your house, each of who already have one handful of candy of their own. They randomly reach into the bag, not knowing what is in it, or that they could get a poison piece of candy, and everyone grabs one handful and at the end, all the candy is gone. Then everyone eats all that candy. SOMEONE is going to get that poison candy regardless of the fact that they are in a room with so many people with candy bars and regardless of the fact that they got a candy bar themselves.

The one poison piece of candy represents a mental illness. As one trait is passed on, it affects other traits. A child with down syndrome isn't just going to have an extra chromosome floating around. It is going to affect their ability to gather and obtain knowledge. It is going to affect the way they look physically. It is going to affect how their muscles work. The same goes with a gifted person who also obtained a negative gene. In fact, if they have an negative gene, the issue could be triggered by the other gene or otherwise magnified by that gene. So with the gene of high IQ. Many of those with high IQ's have issues with speaking early in life or have a learning disability that completely contradicts their IQ, such as dyslexia.

OK, so genes are only half of it. You also have environmental. I know a family where there were 8 kids. I know for a fact that at least two obtained the gifted genes but also a mental illness gene of some kind. Now in the right home environment, those mental illness genes might never have the einvornoment that forces certain coping mechanisms that are available thanks to that mental illness, but for them, that was not the case.

------

It is commonly thought now that now that for a real socio or psychopath, you need high IQ, mental illness and a bad environment growing up. The mental illness forces them to cope differently. While most of us would cry and feel sorry for ourselves, they have their IQ to analyze the situation more in depth and cope in a different way.

A quick example from my own childhood: My mother use to tickle my feet until I nearly wet myself. I hated it. I asked her over and over every time to stop but she never would. So when I was about 7 year old, I lay awake one night thinking about it. My mother had always told me pain is relative to how much we decided a wound was deserved to hurt us. (AKA: "Knock it off, it's in your head," comments). So I thought about this. "When she hits me, I refuse to cry because I know if I do, she'll hit me more. I also know that that the first hit will measure for me the amount of pain I will feel for further hits so I can predict and prepare for it. I decide that when she slaps me in comparision with hitting me with a board, it will not hurt so I resign myself to getting off easy. Therefore, I should be able to just decide that my feet are no longer ticklish, and since there is no element of pain involved, it should be easy." So the next time she goes after my feet, it starts to tickle and in that same moment, I decide that they are not ticklish anymore and it works. I no longer have ticklish feet.

The sociopath takes it even further. They will not allow anyone to control their emotions. They are in control of them. For example, I guy I knew whose mom and sis made him a bday cake and then cried when it flopped. They gently teased him about not getting a cake because there was no more time to bake one while in reality, they had gone out and purchased one. He was disappointed but instead of being surprised and excited like most kids when that other cake came out, he refused to eat any and ate that flopped cake, without frosting, over acting with yummy sounds and smiles because he wanted to make a point that they did not control his emotions. When people pick at them to show emotions as to relate to their own pain or other people's emotions, they resent it and become angry. Some socio's have more of an ability to hide that anger than others. They are more likely to just snap later and become murderous, all the while less likely to be pinpointed as the crazy guy.
-----





Let us talk about IQ and the socio for a moment. Here is now IQ plays for most people:
  1. Below average (those who are pretty normal otherwise) feel inadequate and always feel like they are going to do something wrong to make everyone else realize how different they are. Their jobs are most likly going to be the lowest on the ladder, yet they will be happier because they have fewer pressures and more time to enjoy life.
  2. Average people do not care about IQ. They measure life by their jobs, social standing, what they own, and the achievments of their children. They see anyone below or above them as having something wrong with them when the below can not understand them or they can not understand the "geek" above them. Their jobs are going to be jobs such as teachers, supervisers in retail, ect, ect, where they are always under leaders.
  3. The moderately above average struggles to fit in, find working easy and get what they need without much effort. They are more likely to have projects dumped on them when the boss has too much on his plate. They are leaders and often had odd hobbies. They may or may not think much about IQ and just don't waste their time on people who bore them.
  4. The really above average end up as college professors, doctors, lawyers ect. There are people who are in the two lower groups who want to work hard to be like them but they will not be happy listening as these type of people argue over the difference between an IQ of 140 and 142, yet still being able to tap into society on a positive level through their emotions, trying to help those who have lower IQs understand, get well, ect.
  5. The really really highly gifted are lonely and want to escape the humdrum of the average lifestyles. They have the ability to predict outcomes to things so there is a lower thrill obtained from doing things. Some will obtain hobbies that challenge their minds. No one gets it and rolls their eyes and easily bore of constantly losing while the great mind will beat it, make it harder and continue forward with that.
  6. The sociopath is of an IQ grouping of their own. They do not care about any of the above IQ's. They are most like the really really highly gifted because they like a challenge. That challenge is similar to chess...but with people. You might have the sociopath start off by pretending not to notice people on the sidewalk to make them move for him or slip a comment about a man smoking in front of his wife who believes he quit so that they can listen to the arguement and even make small comments or react with body language that will manipulate the situation. After awhile, this no longer satifies them and they get worse, and worse, and finally start to challenge other norms sexually, and eventually will kill people and may even engage in other behavior like cannablism because they are curious as to what thrill it will provide them. As far as IQ, they may never want to be tested. They do not want people to know their IQ because there will always be someone above them, someone who appears smarter but who they feel really are not. Others will use the IQ as a mask, a way to show the world how smart they are while using it to hide their gruesome reality. They have believed that they are above IQ, that they have found a way around it that makes them above the highest IQ. They will play mind games with those who are attempting to investigate their crimes because they get a thrill from the control they have and like to predict that person's actions and reactions to their crimes.
It is not that some smart people snap with what life dishes out to them. It takes a smart person with a mental illness. Mod cut again

Last edited by toobusytoday; 11-02-2009 at 08:58 PM..
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Unread 11-02-2009, 09:36 AM
 
2,174 posts, read 1,999,187 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Which real world do you live in? For everyone I know, there is a normal tracking to their careers. If you haven't made it to a certain point by a certain time in service, you've hit your ceiling. What do you do that you don't have a ceiling and can decide after not advancing for, oh say, 10 years, that now you want to and it's accomodated?

Everyone I know, without exception, is judged, careerwise based on how far they made it in whatever period of time. In my past industrial experience, if you weren't on the fast track by 18 months, you never made it. If you stopped tracking normally, it was unlikely you'd get back on track. There were way more ways to derail a career than keep one going. A certain amount of vertical movement in a certain period of time was needed to stay on any track other than a dead end one. Sitting still for any period of time was seen as you having topped out. You'd have to jump through flaming hoops to get noticed after that.

The only people I've seen move up after stagnating were in critical positions and then it was just to keep them in those positions. The promotions were in name only and designed to keep them from looking for jobs elsewhere.
I guess the point is that you are busy judging people and finding them wanting.

When I was in my mid-40's, I left teaching (as a paid profession) for a while, by lack of choice - my school closed. I took a job as a temp.

As a temp, I was continually offered opportunities to acquire new skills, because I showed I had mastered the prior skills and the company had needs it needed filling. I did jobs that ordinarily would have gotten paid far more because that way I could learn new things.

Every step of the way, I taught the others around me whatever new skills I acquired, if they were interested. Some were and some weren't. There were temps who worked harder than I did, but who did not get the opportunities, because they could not handle the work. There was one who was as smart, but who turned down the chances, observing that "I was hired to do THIS, so that is what I am going to do."

I was hired out of the temp pool, based on my work - and rose to manage my new department a year later.

No "judgment" for being the former temp.

No judgment for being the junior person in the high tech firm's tech writing department.

No judgment for being the manager's go-to guy.

And no judgment when I left the field to go back to teaching. My hiring boss is still a good friend, and several of my co-workers. And you can bet they are happy when I work with/play with their kids.
*******

What was I judged for? And who by?

I was judged by my parents and siblings for wanting to teach when it was obvious that I could make so much more money in high tech or a raft of other places.

The world may be filled with those folks so ready to judge, as you say, Ivory - but I sure am glad I don't live with or work with the people you do!
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Unread 11-02-2009, 09:46 AM
 
1,122 posts, read 1,158,017 times
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
There's no need to. Over time, a hand full of people will rise to the top as leaders. The rest will be lost in the crowd of followers. Give it time, and cream rises to the top.

Age is considered. No one thinks twice about a 20 something intern being an intern, however, if he's 50 something and still an intern, they'd be scratching their heads. People are smart enough to separate those who just started from those who have been in the field for 30 years.

In the real world, you're ranked against those who are roughly your age with your years of experience. I say roughly because age is obvious when you look at a person but experience is not. There is a normal tracking and if you go against it, you will struggle. I'm feeling it now. A teacher my age should be established but I'm still a novice. I have to remind teachers younger than me that they are the experts.
#1 and those will be those with the highes of IQ's.

#2 not always true. I worked once in a place that was primarily sales. I was hired on to stock the product and that was all I was suppose to do. When it became busy on day, my boss asked if I could greet some people and tell them that someone would be along shortly. Next time he saw me, I was selling the product better than the people from that area. Only the most experienced employees worked this area as most did not know the ins and outs of all the details.. The next time that sales recognition was handed out at the end of the quarter, I was given the recognition, to the surprise of everyone who worked sales as I was "just a stocker with no sales experience in my life," completely disregarding what they already knew about me...running my own business and all. The people I sold to had often said that I was the best employee they'd ever had help them there.

#3 not always true. I am a great example of this. MOST people if given a photo of me will take at least 5 years off my life. When speaking with me, they will add at least 5 years. Most people who do not see me but say speak with me via email or phone will at 10-15 years and are quite shocked when they meet me for the first time.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,442 posts, read 3,559,124 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
For everyone I know, there is a normal tracking to their careers.
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
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Unread 11-02-2009, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
20,319 posts, read 13,910,744 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".
You'll have to tell that to the business professors who teach this stuff!!

You really don't have a clue how the real world works. Take engineering. You get three years to groom. During that time a career track will be chosen. Either you'll push for one or one will be chosen for you. If you perform well, you move up your career path. If not, you settle in somewhere where it becomes increasingly harder to move out of the position you are in as more and more time passes. Do the same job long enough and it's assumed it's the only one you can do. BTW, I'm talking about thousands of engineers here. I have friends who are is in recruiting and HR for both automotive, IT and manufacturing.
They say my assessment is correct. You're either moving up or you stop. Once you stop, it's really hard to get moving again, whithout changing companies, because some youngster who moved up faster than you did when you started is already on that track and they won't push him out of the way for you with your, unproven, track record.

Talk to a recruiter. Talk to HR in a large corporation. You're either moving up in the company or moving out to get a better position or you stagnate.

What industry are you in that this doesn't apply? Can you, seriously, do nothing exceptional for years and then, suddenly, decide to restart your career growth and no one thinks any worse of you? I can tell you first hand that they do think less of you. They think you didn't have what it took when you started and probably don't have it now either. It's your track record they look at. Past performance is a pretty good indicator of furture performance when it comes to employees. Given a choice between someone who has stagnated for several years or a new hot shot grad chomping at the bit, which one do you think the manager should choose?

This is so incredibly common knowledge it's amazing that you think it doesn't apply to you. Good luck with that. Sit on your laurels for about 5 or 6 years and try to restart your career track. Let me know how it goes. I won't hold my breath, lol.

I'll tell you what one HR freind told me. Companies know and count on the cream rising to the top quickly. If you're not on a fast track within a year, you never will be. Once you stop moving, chances are you're done. Maybe one more promotion, years down the road just to appease you, but that's about it. He went on to tell me that once you sign on with a company, they make the career decisions. The last negotiating power you really have is in your interview and there, much of your career path is determined.
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Unread 11-02-2009, 04:52 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
What I meant was adults who perform at higher levels the way gifted children do. Giftedness is relative. By adulthood, you will see people with IQ's of 100 performing at the same level as people with IQ's of 130. Education and experience can count for more than IQ as an adult. The IQ range for my family and my husbands is about 100-140. There is very little difference, based on IQ, in how we perform as adults. As children there was a difference.

Age is considered in an IQ test for a reason. It's relative to age. A child who studies calculus at 12 is gifted but when their peers reach calculus, how far ahead are they now? I'm not gifted but I went farther in college than most gifted people do. I just did it a little later.

Honestly, the only difference I really see in gifted adults is difficulty fitting in. If you're gifted enough to stand out as an adult, you're often emotionally challenged. The rest of us seem to have pretty much normalized over time. If you lined up my seven brothers and sisters, you'd be hard pressed to rank us according to IQ based on things like educational attainment and accomplishment.

For children, IQ matters. A child who has an I of 130 at 10 is three years ahead of their peers and won't fit in in the classroom with their peers. For adults, IQ no longer has the meaning of being ahead. IQ only matters in the broadest sense unless you're talking something extreme. I know people who have IQ's in the 160's and you'd be hard pressed to tell them apart from me and I'm nowhere near that. Now, as children, they were way above me. Not anymore though.
Ivory, your information is factually incorrect.
I.Q. tests are normed relative to an adult age of (I believe) 18. If your statements were true, this would mean that as a person ages, his or her I.Q. constantly increases, and that a person of 60 would be twice as intelligent as one of 30 and four times as one of 15.

Obviously, this is not the case.

Moreover, it does not mean that we all even out by third grade (or thirty years, or retirement age). If Stephen Hawking were 40 and I were 80, I would not be twice as intelligent as he. Moreover, if we were the same age, we would not be of equal intellects: he would be more intelligent than I. He would be more intelligent than I even if he were 80 and I were half that. There will not come a point in time where, (excluding the possibility of Alzheimer's or senile dementia or brain damage) I finally achieve an "age" at which I am as intelligent as Stephen Hawking. It's not a case of, "Oh, if I wait long enough, he and I will be intellectually equal."

This is the equivalent of saying that if I am five feet tall, all I have to do is wait and soon, I'll be as tall as Michael Jordan. No, not really. I could wait a long time and that still would not happen. I.Q. works in a similar fashion.

Hope that helps.
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