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Old 11-02-2009, 06:03 PM
 
1,428 posts, read 1,960,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
The amazing thing is how accurate you can be in explaining how IQ works - or formerly did, at least, and yet come to such erroneous conclusions - and insist that you are right.

The differences in IQ among adults is quite palpable.


.
I would like to concur. We recently had a staff development in which teachers were asked to perform an interpretive activity. It was quite easy to determine from various comments and observations which of the teachers were able to perform the activity at a greater degree and level of complexity, making more connections between some parts and others, between the work and other works, and so on, and which teachers were able primarily to determine surface meaning only.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:05 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,319 posts, read 17,093,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
Ivory, your information is factually incorrect.
I.Q. tests are normed relative to an adult age of (I believe) 18. If your statements were true, this would mean that as a person ages, his or her I.Q. constantly increases, and that a person of 60 would be twice as intelligent as one of 30 and four times as one of 15.

Obviously, this is not the case.

Moreover, it does not mean that we all even out by third grade (or thirty years, or retirement age). If Stephen Hawking were 40 and I were 80, I would not be twice as intelligent as he. Moreover, if we were the same age, we would not be of equal intellects: he would be more intelligent than I. He would be more intelligent than I even if he were 80 and I were half that. There will not come a point in time where, (excluding the possibility of Alzheimer's or senile dementia or brain damage) I finally achieve an "age" at which I am as intelligent as Stephen Hawking. It's not a case of, "Oh, if I wait long enough, he and I will be intellectually equal."

This is the equivalent of saying that if I am five feet tall, all I have to do is wait and soon, I'll be as tall as Michael Jordan. No, not really. I could wait a long time and that still would not happen. I.Q. works in a similar fashion.

Hope that helps.
No, it doesn't increase with age. I never said it does. I said it's relative to age which is why you have to give your age when you take a test. If memory serves me correctly, if you didn't correct for age, IQ would increase until about age 20 and then decrease over the years. I wish it went up until we are 60. It is obvious that a 20 year old has more mental ability than a 10 year old and if you're over 40, it's obvious we start losing some of what we had somewhere in our 30's. Fortunately, experience carries us for a while so we keep our edge longer than that.
As we age, we're not as fast as we used to be, we don't remember the details we used to remember, etc, etc, etc... How much you lose is relative to how much you had to begin with with people on the high end losing more and people on the low end losing less (at least I think that's how it works but I am 50 now, ).

I am not as sharp as I was in my 20's and that is normal. If I took an IQ test today and they didn't account for my age, my IQ would be lower, however, my IQ is relative to the sample set that is my age so it stays about the same. However, mine did go up after college. I scored 10 points higher on an IQ test I took after college than I did on the one I took when I was 10.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:17 PM
 
1,428 posts, read 1,960,312 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
No, it doesn't increase with age. I never said it does. I said it's relative to age which is why you have to give your age when you take a test. If memory serves me correctly, if you didn't correct for age, IQ would increase until about age 20 and then decrease over the years. I wish it went up until we are 60. It is obvious that a 20 year old has more mental ability than a 10 year old and if you're over 40, it's obvious we start losing some of what we had somewhere in our 30's. Fortunately, experience carries us for a while so we keep our edge longer than that.
Perhaps you mean "an average 20-year-old has more mental ability than an average 10-year-old"? Obviously, a ten-year-old with an I.Q. of 200 has more mental ability than a 20-year-old who is seriously disabled or even (less dramatically) perfectly average.
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
2,333 posts, read 4,082,612 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
Articles & Commentary

Charles Murray argues that the most intellectually able should have their abilities both challenged and nurtured - for their own sakes and for society's, as well:
"The problem with the education of the gifted involves not their professional training, but their training as citizens. We live in an age when it is unfashionable to talk about the special responsibility of being gifted, because to do so acknowledges inequality of ability, and this sounds elitist."
Okay, I'm probably going to be racked over the coals for this one but... so be it. I think kids who are gifted should have as much invested into them as the so called "special educated kids." I have a personal friend whose son has as much as 70K per year invested into his "therapy". Granted, he will probably never be a rocket scientist or anything along those lines but yet, someone who is at the opposite end of the spectrum would be SOL in regards to the needs to nurture their abilities. If we as a country want to excel, we need to invest in the kids who will propel us into the future and NOT just into the ones who lag behind. It doesn't make any sense to do otherwise. IMO.
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Old 11-02-2009, 08:00 PM
 
2,175 posts, read 2,226,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
No, it doesn't increase with age. I never said it does. I said it's relative to age which is why you have to give your age when you take a test. If memory serves me correctly, if you didn't correct for age, IQ would increase until about age 20 and then decrease over the years. I wish it went up until we are 60. It is obvious that a 20 year old has more mental ability than a 10 year old and if you're over 40, it's obvious we start losing some of what we had somewhere in our 30's. Fortunately, experience carries us for a while so we keep our edge longer than that.
As we age, we're not as fast as we used to be, we don't remember the details we used to remember, etc, etc, etc... How much you lose is relative to how much you had to begin with with people on the high end losing more and people on the low end losing less (at least I think that's how it works but I am 50 now, ).

I am not as sharp as I was in my 20's and that is normal. If I took an IQ test today and they didn't account for my age, my IQ would be lower, however, my IQ is relative to the sample set that is my age so it stays about the same. However, mine did go up after college. I scored 10 points higher on an IQ test I took after college than I did on the one I took when I was 10.
As Ivory won't read my reply, would somebody please explain to her that her understanding of how IQ testing works past age 20 is erroneous.

The construct used for IQs assumes an increasing ability to answer the questions on the test as one ages, not a decreasing ability - the comparisons are made differently than she thinks they are.

Thank you.
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Old 11-02-2009, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,319 posts, read 17,093,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Wallace View Post
Perhaps you mean "an average 20-year-old has more mental ability than an average 10-year-old"? Obviously, a ten-year-old with an I.Q. of 200 has more mental ability than a 20-year-old who is seriously disabled or even (less dramatically) perfectly average.
No. I was referring to the same person at 10 and 20 and assuming nothing major like a head injury. I think it's clear that we develop mental ability for many years before we stop. I know I developed a lot between 10 and 20. I'd go as far as to say MAYBE 25 but it stops there and somewhere in the last 10 or so years, I've started going backwards. Age matters.
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Old 11-02-2009, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,319 posts, read 17,093,213 times
Reputation: 11758
Quote:
Originally Posted by mommabear2 View Post
Okay, I'm probably going to be racked over the coals for this one but... so be it. I think kids who are gifted should have as much invested into them as the so called "special educated kids." I have a personal friend whose son has as much as 70K per year invested into his "therapy". Granted, he will probably never be a rocket scientist or anything along those lines but yet, someone who is at the opposite end of the spectrum would be SOL in regards to the needs to nurture their abilities. If we as a country want to excel, we need to invest in the kids who will propel us into the future and NOT just into the ones who lag behind. It doesn't make any sense to do otherwise. IMO.
Who's writing that check and why leave out the entire population in the middle? More notable people will come from the middle than will the G&T crowd simply because there are so many more of us. Why would regular kids deserve less than special ed kids or the gifted?

And your arugment doesn't float. It turns out the top 10% of kids compare favorably around the world. It's the bottom 90% who don't. That being the case, no further investment need be made in the upper 10%. They're already there and the top 10% goes well below what is normally G&T. Even I make the cut here. According to one site, the top 8.9% have an IQ above 120.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 11-02-2009 at 09:06 PM..
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Old 11-02-2009, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Houston/Heights
2,637 posts, read 2,738,993 times
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I was always about a C+ Student in School. whether I studied or not. But I could outrun most of the Guys, so I was cool. I don't remember anybody thinkin the smart guys were cool. And it is all about being Cool, ain't it?
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:10 PM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,319 posts, read 17,093,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thaskateguy View Post
I was always about a C+ Student in School. whether I studied or not. But I could outrun most of the Guys, so I was cool. I don't remember anybody thinkin the smart guys were cool. And it is all about being Cool, ain't it?
The important question is, are you still cool?
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Old 11-02-2009, 09:14 PM
 
2,175 posts, read 2,226,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post

And your arugment doesn't float. It turns out the top 10% of kids compare favorably around the world.
It turns out, your statistics are wrong - our top 10% kids don't compare favorably, either.
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