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Old 10-29-2009, 11:03 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,316 posts, read 17,093,213 times
Reputation: 11758

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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdc3217 View Post
I see what you're saying. Time is a great equalizer. I know a lot of really smart people, and the ones who did not get the benefit of a good education don't feel a sense of merit-based entitlement to be great, and I do see that in those who had the benefit of a better education.

I think all I want is good teaching that pushes all students ahead to the best of their abilities. I really don't care how we get there, if it works. I'm not sure it has to take more resources to provide gifted students an appropriate experience, but if they are successful and satisfied in school, I think that makes them more productive in secondary education and in their careers.

S
Using equal time, students would get according to their ability, naturally and the system would not favor one student at the expense of another. Brighter students who can go faster would get more because more could be taught in less time. Students who need more time to learn less material would get the time they need to actually learn what's in front of them but it would be at the expense of volume of material learned, which, IMO, is ok. Holding my special ed kids to the same standards of my college bound kids is insane. Slowing down my college bound kids because they're sitting next to a special ed student who needs to go slower is equally insane.

As a teacher, I'd love to be in position to give equal time to all of my students. Unfortunately, I spend 90% of my effort on the bottom 50% of the class and way too little on those who are passing. There's nothing else I can do under No Child Gets Ahead. We're accountable for the number passing so I have to concentrate on the ones who are not. The really sad part is I could actually do that better in a tracked system. Teaching is much more efficient if it's done at the level most of the class needs.
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Old 10-29-2009, 09:45 PM
Status: "NO MORE TURNING AWAY" (set 23 days ago)
 
Location: Heart of TEA country--Livingston County, MI
7,714 posts, read 10,533,290 times
Reputation: 5323
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I find the G&T crowd doesn't want to do analytical work. They also don't want more work. I teach two levels of chemistry and one of my higher chemistry courses has a disproportionate number of honors students. They complain about what they're learning more than my regular class. I hear whines of "What do we need to learn THIS for?" almost daily from them. One girl did this multiple times a day until I reminded her that she was suggesting I teach this class like I teach my lower chemistry class.

I find the higher level kids want the work to be easy and to look brilliant. They really don't want to work harder or think deeper. They just want a chance to shine (while doing the least amount of work). In two years, I've had, exactly, one student who wanted to go deeper and learn more. I've had multiple students who considered themselves brilliant but only really wanted a chance to show off without actually doing anything extra. I had one last year who, supposedly, was on directed study. Her final presentation looked like something she'd thrown togeter in an afternoon and she got mad when I didn't give her an A.

My younger daughter does want to go deeper...sometimes. Other times, she just wants to get away with the least work possible. She goes in spurts. Sometimes she jumps forward and sometimes she just levels for a while. For her, grade skipping has worked well.

I would suggest that such students are NEITHER TALENTED nor GIFTED but rather PAMPERED and SPOILED by adults who provide for their every whim and caress their INFLATED EGOS...
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Old 10-30-2009, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,316 posts, read 17,093,213 times
Reputation: 11758
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
I would suggest that such students are NEITHER TALENTED nor GIFTED but rather PAMPERED and SPOILED by adults who provide for their every whim and caress their INFLATED EGOS...
I would agree with that assessment. My daughter who is gifted has often taken on more and deeper assignments. My "honors" kids seem to want an easy A. I had one come to me the other day demanding to know why she doesn't have an A in my class when she gets A's in every other class as if there MUST be something wrong with me. I just shake my head.
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Old 10-30-2009, 06:50 AM
 
2,175 posts, read 2,226,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
I would suggest that such students are NEITHER TALENTED nor GIFTED but rather PAMPERED and SPOILED by adults who provide for their every whim and caress their INFLATED EGOS...
I would suggest that one can tell nothing about the aptitude of such students in such an environment.

If a teacher thinks that the upper level chem class should have fewer honors students, this seems curious to me. Setting that aside for the nonce, even granting your assumption that the children are PAMPERED and SPOILED, they can still be TALENTED or GIFTED - merely spoiled, as well.

However, in any given scenario there is often a multitude of perspectives. A student might note to you, instead, that they want to understand the context of what is being presented in order to better understand it, and they find their instructor to be frustrating, because she will never explain how a specific lesson works with the others to form a greater whole - and the listener would then be inclined to commiserate with the poor student over having such an unbeknighted teacher!

This or half a dozen other reasons can be behind what a teacher would describe that way - especially students whose teacher is disdainful of the worth of teaching these students in this school, to start with, and is actively trying to get away from them. Students are often more clueful than their teachers suspect.

So, yes - they could be PAMPERED and SPOILED. Or they could be NEGLECTED and UNTAUGHT. We can't tell from this angle.
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Old 10-30-2009, 06:52 AM
 
2,175 posts, read 2,226,955 times
Reputation: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
I would agree with that assessment. My daughter who is gifted has often taken on more and deeper assignments. My "honors" kids seem to want an easy A. I had one come to me the other day demanding to know why she doesn't have an A in my class when she gets A's in every other class as if there MUST be something wrong with me. I just shake my head.
Wouldn't an explanation of what it would take for her to bring her grade up to an A have served, instead of shaking your head - or, at least, in addition to shaking your head?
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Old 10-30-2009, 08:44 AM
 
1,156 posts, read 2,425,270 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
I would suggest that such students are NEITHER TALENTED nor GIFTED but rather PAMPERED and SPOILED by adults who provide for their every whim and caress their INFLATED EGOS...
I know quite a few young smart people who have the opposite problem. THey feel deflated that they are misunderstood, not able to really relate to their peers, and picked on for being different. That doesn't make them feel special, its makes them feel lousy.

Personally, any ego caressing I do is to counteract the beat-down my child gets at school from other kids telling him that his ideas are stupid, and teachers harshly disciplining the whole class for the behavior of the few. If these same adults weren't saying to my face how great my kid was, I guess I'd assume he was part of the problem, but all indications are that he is not, so yeah, maybe I try to build him back up a little.

I do not agree with parents who constantly intervene in regards to missed assignments and grade issues, but I do think parent involvement is important if a student is not learning or managing to function in class.
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Old 10-30-2009, 10:26 AM
 
1,122 posts, read 1,311,967 times
Reputation: 710
Quote:
Originally Posted by zthatzmanz28 View Post
I would suggest that such students are NEITHER TALENTED nor GIFTED but rather PAMPERED and SPOILED by adults who provide for their every whim and caress their INFLATED EGOS...
REALLY!? Ok, PLEASE explain how I pampered and spoiled my kids? PLEASE! MAYBE your explanation could explain to me how it was my first child said her first word at four months (My doctor witnessed it), walked at 7 months old, how the hell she learned how to model the lifecycle of a butterfly with her playdo at age 3, and what the heck was it that made if possible to read at age 3 since I never bought any "teach your baby to read" garbage?

MAYBE she was spoiled and pampered because I let her look at books with butterflies and bought her playdo.

MAYBE she was spoiled and pampered because we didn't keep her restrained in a car seat in our house until she was a year old.

MAYBE she was spolied and pampered because we talked while our infant child was in the same room or may have had the TV babbling in the background speaking the same language.

MAYBE she was spoiled and pampered because we read to her everyday.

HOW about our second child who is more artistically gifted than academically, who is 5 years 7 months, has been in kindergarten for a total of 8 weeks and just finished 1st grade, and how is it that he has such a large vocabulary, often using words I have to look up because I've never heard of them even with my extensive vocabulary, he walked at 6 months, said his first word at 4 months?

MAYBE he is spoiled and pampered because we talk around him.

MAYBE he is spoiled and pampered because we homeschool and he has the ability to go through an entire grade in literally weeks. (More of just putting the work there and having him do it to prove he can for the porfolios but now things are slowing down a little, and I emphasize a little.)

MAYBE he is spoiled and pampered because we allowed him to have crayons and blank paper to draw on.

HOW about my little mystery boy who will turn 4 soon. Explain to me how he could play Candy land at 10 months old, how the heck when holding my hands and bouncing on his little legs at four months old, he lets go and starts walking (I have a pic of him standing before 4 months old in the living room chair) and how the heck he figured out how to say hi at 2 weeks old (Another doctor heard this cause she said hi to him and he said it back we had been denying up to that moment when we were forced to realize this was true) but then as time goes on, can not say 1/2 of the letters in the alphabet and in the last couple months finally figured got down the G the last one BUT in spite of that had secretly learned to read so while standing in line at the bank when he had just turned 3 at the, "For the privacy of the customer ahead of you, please wait here," sign and he's very focused on it and I ask him if he knew any of the words, he says yes, I ask him which ones and he says "please" and I ask him which one is please and he points to it and it is repeated with the word 'of' to the shock and whispers of those around me while I'm asking him, "So you can read eh?" "Yup." "How long could you read?" "A wong (long) time."

HOW IN THE WOLRD DID I SPOIL AND PAMPER THIS CHILD!!!! HE was born this way. BECAUSE of his inability to speak well (speech issues and delays are more and increasingly common with high IQ kids, especially more so as the number rises), much of his skill was hidden unless he could physically show you. OUR focus the last nearly 4 years is working on the speech and we haven't focused on anything else other than allowing him to look at the picture in the books we have, some of which are high school-college level, and reading to him.


BUT I'm not done yet....how is it that my daughter is spoiled and pampered when she has a type of spelling dylexia? She was also born with that. I mean, if I spoiled and pampered her to make her smart, then I must have been the cause of the other, right? Same goes with the little boy who couldn't speak well.
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Old 10-30-2009, 10:37 AM
 
Location: where the moss is taking over the villages
2,161 posts, read 3,228,082 times
Reputation: 1167
Quote:
Originally Posted by grapico View Post
Hrrm... don't most schools have gifted programs now? At least a lot? I'm not sure how it should be different post school though...
Yes, the public school system has a gifted program that is usually a state program.

In my experience, it took 2.5 years to get my daughter tested by a professional panel. The reason? The unspoken agenda is that there needs to be a series of "recommenations" made for the student.

She was tested by a panel of psychology professionals, not some online test that anyone can take. Her score was 137.

I had to make requests for her recommendations after my year long questions got the answer that I needed them. It was really wierd that I then had to request recommendatios for a year & a half. Then when my daughter finally got "in" - her friends who already fulfilled the unspoken requirements of having just the right family "background" asked to get "in" & were allowed in immediately.

Did I mention that my daughter didn't get the "right recommendations" when I was a single mom & she was on the free lunch program??? At the same time that she got enough recommendations for GATE, she was literally tapped on the shoulder to join Girl Scouts, also after waiting 2.5 years. By then I was married, had a regular job & a new car.

Go figure. I was the one who really needed to fit in for my daughter to get the services & admittance to somewhat (not publicly recognized as so) elitist programs/groups. You can imagine how ticked I was when her boat finally came in to join her little friends in Scouts because Mommy had a new husband & car that the PTA approved of.

Kate

Last edited by sarahkate_m; 10-30-2009 at 10:51 AM..
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Old 10-30-2009, 11:32 AM
 
2,175 posts, read 2,226,955 times
Reputation: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by flik_becky View Post
REALLY!? Ok, PLEASE explain how I pampered and spoiled my kids?
Becky -

At the risk of seeming to defend either that poster or the one to which s/he responded, I think the point was not that gifted kids are not gifted, but spoiled.

Rather, s/he was saying that the kids who are whining and questioning "why do we have to learn this?" in Ivory's classroom were spoiled and pampered.

It's quite possible that s/he is right. (And equally possible that s/he is wrong, as I already pointed out.)
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Old 10-30-2009, 11:35 AM
 
Location: Bradenton, Florida
27,237 posts, read 27,207,784 times
Reputation: 10607
IMO, I enjoyed being at a higher level than the other students.

Would you rather be seen as "average" or "stellar"? In the world of the blind man, the one eyed man is king.
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