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Students always have the option of doing more. I don't know a single teacher who would stop a child from delving further into the material. They're just not going to do it for them. When you have a class of 35 students, you can't cater to every single child.
But students can't do 6 months worth of work in 2 months, and have the other 4 months off to do other work. This was the cpg's original message I think.
I remember in many classes I had, we couldn't do homework in class. We couldn't really advance ahead if we wanted to.
I went to public schools for 13 years of my life, I do have a bit of experience in that regard.
Saying that "they aren't all bad," and then giving one example does not give enough weight to your argument, especially when your "experience" is limited to one area of the country (and here I will mention that my experience ranges all over the country; I have taught in two different states, gone to public schools in two different states and have interviewed in 10 states, both public and private).
Moreover, as a teacher, you are privy to the behind-the-scenes functioning of the school, which gives you an excellent perspective regarding what the actual problems of the school are and, especially, why they are occuring. As far as I can see, there is no hope for a student whose community--and, especially, parents--does not value education.
The high school that I taught at is a case in point; it is still ranked among the top "Newsweek 100" as well as receives high marks in the county and, yet, what did I see when I taught there? The same things that I saw at the public school that I attended when I was a teenager: the students were *obsessed* with pop culture and organized themselves into cliques; cheating was rampant; students who received A's in classes were unable to demonstrate any learned knowledge; the faculty, administration and parents were just as bad as the kids, which is actually why the kids were behaving as they were; and, given the population of the school (~1500), I knew of only a handful who were going on to prestigious universities. Those aspects in addition to the typical public high school problems: drugs, violence, behavioral issues and female students wearing stilletos to class.
I also taught at a private, Catholic school and can tell you that the outcomes were *completely* different, as were the attitudes of the students, parents, faculty and administration. The majority of those kids went on to very prestigious/well-regarded universities and never exhibited any of the dysfunctional behaviors that I have seen at public schools. What is even sadder is that the tuition for that Catholic school was about $2000 more per student than what I have seen as expenditures per student at average districts in the country.
I would never work at a public school ever again, no matter how much $$ I were paid. And I certainly wouldn't send my children to public either. I'm glad that you had a positive experience but your experience is more the exception than the rule.
If you come at me with a one line ad-hominim you are not going to get much of a response.
My central point, which you seem to have missed, is that Some public schools are working and that to just judge all public schools with a broad brush is not the most logical approach to the situation. Additionally, you may not have studied formal logic, but one counter example is enough to prove an all statement false.
Also If you are going criticize me for using a personal experience it might help if you came back with something other then exclusively your own personal experiences.
On a side note I have no idea what people being "obsessed with popular culture" has to do with education. There are a lot of people that have hobbies that relate to "popular culture" and have no problem performing academically or vocationally. Unless, of course, you are just unfoundedly inferring that a group of people with certain interests will behave in a certain way.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 11-14-2009 at 11:01 AM..
But students can't do 6 months worth of work in 2 months, and have the other 4 months off to do other work. This was the cpg's original message I think.
I remember in many classes I had, we couldn't do homework in class. We couldn't really advance ahead if we wanted to.
But why the heck not? To me, that simply represents backwards thinking, a philosophy that emphasizes conventional groupthink, rather than committing to creating more motivated students and an atmosphere where accomplishment is rewarded. Instead, advanced and motivated students today simply have more busy work piled on them, effectively punishing them.
Here's the basic problem with your premise: The work itself has become the objective, rather than achieving mastery of the subject matter. In other words, a student only demonstrates subject mastery by filling out a specified number of worksheets, handing in a certain number of homework assignments, etc. etc. But what if a student walks into American History on Day One fully knowing 90% of the curriculum?
I was an advanced reader and an avid history buff. By the time I was in fifth grade I was reading beyond a 12th grade level. As a result I had lmastered both the history and English curriculum long before I actually took the courses. I never cracked a book in my high school coursework (With the exception of reading literature) in either subject and made straight As. There is no question that I was ready for much more advanced coursework, but instead had to march in lockstep with the other kids. I'm pretty certain lots of kids in school face similar situations, and stultifying boredom, today.
Let me put it to you this way. If somebody had said, "CPG, you've already mastered the humanities portion of the curriculum. Good going. Now put your back into math and science, and you'll be out at age 16." Do you think I would busted it? Hell, yeah.
But students can't do 6 months worth of work in 2 months, and have the other 4 months off to do other work. This was the cpg's original message I think.
I remember in many classes I had, we couldn't do homework in class. We couldn't really advance ahead if we wanted to.
Few students are capable of doing 6 months work in two months, however, if they can show their teacher they learned six monnths material in 2 months, I'm sure arrangements can be made for them to do something else for the next 4 months.
This is a funny conversation. I'd love to have my students manage to digest six months work in six months. One of my monthly reports requires me to assess how far behind we are. I teach about 75% of what I learned in chemistry when I was in high school and my students think I go too fast.
Few students are capable of doing 6 months work in two months, however, if they can show their teacher they learned six monnths material in 2 months, I'm sure arrangements can be made for them to do something else for the next 4 months.
This is a funny conversation. I'd love to have my students manage to digest six months work in six months. One of my monthly reports requires me to assess how far behind we are. I teach about 75% of what I learned in chemistry when I was in high school and my students think I go too fast.
Back to my previous post. If a student fully understands the subject, who cares how many worksheets he fills out?
I think that's the crux of the problem, at least when it comes to the educators. The bureaucratic mindset emphasizes crossing things off a to-do list.
I really don't see what the big deal about highschool freshmen not knowing algebra is. My school didn't even offer algebra till freshman year, geometry and algebra 2 sophomore years, calc and trig(?) junior and senior.. It really doesn't matter if freshman don't know it. I bet if they were to poll seniors they'd find out they know plenty of algebra and beyond.
That being said, I do think its a shame that they graduate kids who've taken four years of basic mathematics.. I think at least algebra2 should be required in highschool(I think algebra2 equals out to about college level algebra..)
Where are you from? Most middle school students should have had at least first-year algebra and most have had Algebra 2 by the time they are entering their hs freshman year... This is how it is in our kids middle school (Oregon) and how it was when I was in school (Texas). I've never heard of students graduating hs without having taken at least two years of algebra at some point (whether during ms or hs).
Students always have the option of doing more. I don't know a single teacher who would stop a child from delving further into the material. They're just not going to do it for them. When you have a class of 35 students, you can't cater to every single child.
This is a very important point. And what it also reminds me of, is the importance of parental involvement. Often kids will not think to request higher-level work from teachers. Or, perhaps they will just do what's expected of them and not push themselves more than they have to, even though they could go further if someone could give them a nudge. As a parent, we are our child's best advocate. We are the liason between student and teacher and can help in this regard. I see a lot of bright kids at my kids schools who could do so much more if only they had an involved parent. Most parents by late elem. and especially ms and hs age tend to start to tune-out, or expect that their child doesn't need them as much by those older ages. Not true. Not true at all. In many ways your kids need you even more involved, just in different ways than they did when they were younger.
And this, I think, is why the schools today are struggling so much to produce higher-level thinkers. The parents are more times than not utterly self-absorbed and checked-out. Or, you can blame on the higher number of single-parent homes... or low-income homes... or so forth.
It takes parents, teachers, schools, and the students all working together to accomplish great things. Right now, unfortunately, there's more bickering amongst the parties than a coming-together of them. It's tragic.
Back to my previous post. If a student fully understands the subject, who cares how many worksheets he fills out?
I think that's the crux of the problem, at least when it comes to the educators. The bureaucratic mindset emphasizes crossing things off a to-do list.
Like it or not, the teacher needs to assess that a student, truely, has learned the material before they move on and that means some kind of assessment, like worksheets. They should be no issue for the student who knows the material. I have a few kids who finish them in 10 minutes and then read something else while others finish. I don't tell them what to do with their time once they're done. They have the choice of working ahead in my class but no one has ever taken me up on that yet.
Yes, I cross things off a list. That's how I make sure all of my CCE's are taught and make sure what I teach matches what I test.
This is a very important point. And what it also reminds me of, is the importance of parental involvement. Often kids will not think to request higher-level work from teachers. Or, perhaps they will just do what's expected of them and not push themselves more than they have to, even though they could go further if someone could give them a nudge. As a parent, we are our child's best advocate. We are the liason between student and teacher and can help in this regard. I see a lot of bright kids at my kids schools who could do so much more if only they had an involved parent. Most parents by late elem. and especially ms and hs age tend to start to tune-out, or expect that their child doesn't need them as much by those older ages. Not true. Not true at all. In many ways your kids need you even more involved, just in different ways than they did when they were younger.
And this, I think, is why the schools today are struggling so much to produce higher-level thinkers. The parents are more times than not utterly self-absorbed and checked-out. Or, you can blame on the higher number of single-parent homes... or low-income homes... or so forth.
It takes parents, teachers, schools, and the students all working together to accomplish great things. Right now, unfortunately, there's more bickering amongst the parties than a coming-together of them. It's tragic.
Actually, parents are often worried about the wrong things. For example, I have a student in my physics class who is learning a lot but he's getting a C. Dad wants him to drop because it's hurting his GPA. Often parents don't want deeper work for their kids because it might jeopardize a high GPA. They'd rather they ace and average test than get a B on a higher test so they take regular chemistry instead of honors chemistry even though they're quite capable of being in honors chem or drop physics to avoid dropping their GPA.
I need to find out how one of my daughter's teacher's grades. He groups kids by level and grades accordingly. My dd is a very high level so getting an A will be hard for her. A student at a lower level will have an easier time getting an A. He has a strange grading scale that takes into account both the child's level and the percentage they get right on tests and the tests are higher and harder as you move up.
I also taught at a private, Catholic school and can tell you that the outcomes were *completely* different, as were the attitudes of the students, parents, faculty and administration. The majority of those kids went on to very prestigious/well-regarded universities and never exhibited any of the dysfunctional behaviors that I have seen at public schools. What is even sadder is that the tuition for that Catholic school was about $2000 more per student than what I have seen as expenditures per student at average districts in the country.
Yeah, and what I'm getting from that is that, again, the students and parents are the driving factor behind the success. Plus, because all those people with the same mindset are concentrated in the same place, there is peer pressure to succeed in school and do well. Money isn't the point. I could throw all the money in the world into an inner city school, but until the students started caring and being motivated, nothing much is going to change.
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I teach about 75% of what I learned in chemistry when I was in high school and my students think I go too fast.
