Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
There is a difference between "pretend that differences don't exist" and "officially celebrate a majority religion's holiday."
When I went into the article, I thought they were telling kids they could not wear crosses or stars of David, and I was prepared to be outraged by the school's meddling with individual students' religious practices.
But, instead, what I found was an article about the principal of a school doing what he is supposed to do - keep religious events out of his school.
Yeah, that is what I thought, too.
When I was in elementary school, we celebrated both Christmas and Hanukkah in the classroom, although come to think of it, I do not recall any decorations, but no one stopped any student or teacher from expressing a Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah. In fact, people generally said both, "Merry Christmas and a Happy Hanukkah." I am not Jewish, but I always liked the dreidels that they handed out in the classroom and we would spend the rest of the day spinning them on our desktops.
I don't think that I was in elementary school that long ago, but how things have changed.
Hanukkah aside, Christmas has zero religious value to many people who participate in the holiday anyways. It almost seems to be a moot point.
I realize and in general agree with the point you are making; however any cartoon depiction of Mohammad would have everyone, including Muslims, up in arms.....
...and many in the old media refusing to show them so as not to offend Muslim sensibilities.
This always just makes me shake my head in wonderment.
Christmas as a religious holiday can't be celebrated in schools because of separation of church and state. Got it.
Yet they can have holiday parties that include santa, reindeers, gingerbread, trees etc, that are all connected directly to Christmas as well. It just cracks me up how that line is drawn in order to still celebrate the holiday without the 'religious' affiliation for most people. Either you celebrate it, or you don't. haha
On the other hand......my oldest daughter teaches in a school that is very diverse in regards to culture and religion. One family objected to the party due to it 'conflicting with their beliefs'. However, once my daughter changed her bingo game from santa/reindeer to snowmen/snowflakes and her craft from decorating trees to decorating snowflakes, the parent was just fine with it. Why? It's still a party at Christmas time, sharing, giving gifts (the parent gave my daughter a nice gift as well and her family doesn't even accept gifts themselves) and feasting together. It's because they celebrate the holiday as a religious one and not a secular one, therefore santa/reindeer/trees were objectionable. As long as it was devoid of those symbols, they had no issue.
Then you add in to the mix those who say that Kwanzaa should also be taught but not celebrated, yet they have no idea that it's NOT a religious holiday. It's a study and practice of African priniciples/values over 7 days. There is no connection to religion at all! My husband is black and his family has never practiced Kwanzaa as they are not that deeply rooted in their African heritage and have no desire to be.
Ironically, out of everything Kwanzaa is the one that should be taught in schools and could be since it's not religious.
Anyway, it just cracks me up how this becomes such a hotbed yet the lines are so very much blurred....
Christmas has zero religious value to many people who participate in the holiday anyways. It almost seems to be a moot point.
I assure you, to many people Christmas has ample religious value - whether they be Christians for whom it is a sacred day, or those of other religions who are overwhelmed by the majority's practices and chivvied by the majority to "just enjoy it - there's no religious significance," with no concept that it just is not a secular holiday no matter how many Christmas sales there are.
It is not a moot point.
If it were, then there would not be such a big hoopla about that school's practice and the whole "Merry Christmas vs. Happy Holidays" argument would not be going on.
This always just makes me shake my head in wonderment.
Christmas as a religious holiday can't be celebrated in schools because of separation of church and state. Got it.
Yet they can have holiday parties that include santa, reindeers, gingerbread, trees etc, that are all connected directly to Christmas as well. It just cracks me up how that line is drawn in order to still celebrate the holiday without the 'religious' affiliation for most people. Either you celebrate it, or you don't. haha
On the other hand......my oldest daughter teaches in a school that is very diverse in regards to culture and religion. One family objected to the party due to it 'conflicting with their beliefs'. However, once my daughter changed her bingo game from santa/reindeer to snowmen/snowflakes and her craft from decorating trees to decorating snowflakes, the parent was just fine with it. Why? It's still a party at Christmas time, sharing, giving gifts (the parent gave my daughter a nice gift as well and her family doesn't even accept gifts themselves) and feasting together. It's because they celebrate the holiday as a religious one and not a secular one, therefore santa/reindeer/trees were objectionable. As long as it was devoid of those symbols, they had no issue.
Then you add in to the mix those who say that Kwanzaa should also be taught but not celebrated, yet they have no idea that it's NOT a religious holiday. It's a study and practice of African priniciples/values over 7 days. There is no connection to religion at all! My husband is black and his family has never practiced Kwanzaa as they are not that deeply rooted in their African heritage and have no desire to be.
Ironically, out of everything Kwanzaa is the one that should be taught in schools and could be since it's not religious.
Anyway, it just cracks me up how this becomes such a hotbed yet the lines are so very much blurred....
The shift to 'holiday party' and 'winter vacation' is, in fact, just sugar coating to pretend to honor the law, while honoring it in the most thinly veiled way possible.
The family gave a gift to the teacher because the teacher celebrates, whether the family does - and to avoid any risk of (further) penalizing their child by being the only family to not give a gift. There is tremendous pressure to 'fit in' even for those whose families do not personally observe or choose to celebrate Christmas.
The number of office and group "Secret Santa" activities in which a lack of participation marks one as a Scrooge rather than merely part of a different religion is too high to begin to measure. They happen in schools, in government offices, etc.
So, too, the office "holiday" parties and the shutting of function during those hours, often.
The lines are blurred because the majority is not prepared to actually let go of their public celebration of their religion.
The shift to 'holiday party' and 'winter vacation' is, in fact, just sugar coating to pretend to honor the law, while honoring it in the most thinly veiled way possible.
So, too, the office "holiday" parties and the shutting of function during those hours, often.
The lines are blurred because the majority is not prepared to actually let go of their public celebration of their religion.
Now hang on.....wait a minute. We were discussing the separation of church and state as it applies to school. Namely, the administration and teachers appearing to support one religious practice over another, which they should not do.
You are now shifting the debate to the public celebration - in stores and in private businesses - of Christmas. I do not interpret the separation of church and state to the abolition of office parties, secret santas in offices, etc.
Are you contending that the majority should let go of 'public celebration of their religion'? That smacks of a free speech issue vs church/state issue.
Now hang on.....wait a minute. We were discussing the separation of church and state as it applies to school. Namely, the administration and teachers appearing to support one religious practice over another, which they should not do.
You are now shifting the debate to the public celebration - in stores and in private businesses - of Christmas. I do not interpret the separation of church and state to the abolition of office parties, secret santas in offices, etc.
Are you contending that the majority should let go of 'public celebration of their religion'? That smacks of a free speech issue vs church/state issue.
No - it was just a prolonged lingering reaction to k-luv's comment that "Christmas has zero religious value to many people who participate in the holiday anyways. It almost seems to be a moot point."
I guess I just hadn't gotten it out of my system.
But the point that the schools pretend to not celebrate Christmas, while really celebrating it, was one I was agreeing with. The Easter -oops, I mean Spring - break is another example of such, if far less pronounced.
So, no, I believe that people get to celebrate their religions as they see fit in the non-governmental spaces, but believe that the ostensible governmental "non-observance" of Christmas is lip-service, only.
The shift to 'holiday party' and 'winter vacation' is, in fact, just sugar coating to pretend to honor the law, while honoring it in the most thinly veiled way possible.
The family gave a gift to the teacher because the teacher celebrates, whether the family does - and to avoid any risk of (further) penalizing their child by being the only family to not give a gift. There is tremendous pressure to 'fit in' even for those whose families do not personally observe or choose to celebrate Christmas.
The number of office and group "Secret Santa" activities in which a lack of participation marks one as a Scrooge rather than merely part of a different religion is too high to begin to measure. They happen in schools, in government offices, etc.
So, too, the office "holiday" parties and the shutting of function during those hours, often.
The lines are blurred because the majority is not prepared to actually let go of their public celebration of their religion.
Here's an interesting thought to springboard from yours:
I actually think that far too much time in school is spent on celebrating holidays. Obviously, things may certainly have changed since the Jurassic Era, which is when I went to school, but we spent an inordinate amount of time on the Christmas pageant learning to scream-sing 'Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer" in the fine tradition of children everywhere. In all seriousness, was that truly the most effective use of classroom time? Given time invested compared with information learned, that's a tiny little payback. Would it have been much better as an extracurricular activity? Yeah, I think so. Save school for school.
Since many holidays are religious in nature even when, as JPS is pointing out, they're relatively thinly disguised as secular, I'm not convinced that spending however-many hours on a classroom Christmas/Kwanzaa/Hanukkah party is all that appropriate in school anyway. Learn about them? Sure. Study one's own cultural customs and compare them with others? Sure. Have a party instead of learning division? Not so much. This is particularly true the further up in one's education one goes.
Here's an interesting thought to springboard from yours:
I actually think that far too much time in school is spent on celebrating holidays. Obviously, things may certainly have changed since the Jurassic Era, which is when I went to school, but we spent an inordinate amount of time on the Christmas pageant learning to scream-sing 'Rudolph, the Red-Nosed Reindeer" in the fine tradition of children everywhere. In all seriousness, was that truly the most effective use of classroom time? Given time invested compared with information learned, that's a tiny little payback. Would it have been much better as an extracurricular activity? Yeah, I think so. Save school for school.
Since many holidays are religious in nature even when, as JPS is pointing out, they're relatively thinly disguised as secular, I'm not convinced that spending however-many hours on a classroom Christmas/Kwanzaa/Hanukkah party is all that appropriate in school anyway. Learn about them? Sure. Study one's own cultural customs and compare them with others? Sure. Have a party instead of learning division? Not so much. This is particularly true the further up in one's education one goes.
The amount of classroom time spent on holiday related things was far more in my time in elementary school back in the 60's/70's than it is today around here. We spent several entire days practicing for the Christmas program and our party was probably half a day then. I still know my 4 lines of dialogue....haha
Now, all practicing for performances are done after school and any parties held are no more than an hour in length. While there might still be some class time learning songs, they learn songs year round, so a holiday song doesn't take the place of any other curriculum note.
Now if you want to talk about wasting time...in my Physics class in high school, we spent the entire last 6 weeks holding Spades tournaments because we had completed the entire curriculum by then. Shrug.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
