U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 12-24-2009, 08:58 PM
 
Location: Southern California
3,603 posts, read 2,579,744 times
Reputation: 2780

Advertisements

I really want to know where everyone is getting the idea that separation for gifted kids will inevitably lead to bullying. My district has GATE classes at two schools. Each school had one GATE class per grade. The one my sister went to was actually at one of the poorest schools in the districts with a huge gang problem. They weren't completely separated and had recess and lunch with the other kids. She said they were not teased by the other kids. For the last few months of fourth grade I actually attended the other school in the district that had GATE classes, even though I was in the average class. I actually didn't know there was a GATE class for the first month or so. The kids just played with all the other kids during recess and lunch. It wasn't an issue at all.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-24-2009, 09:10 PM
 
2,199 posts, read 1,489,521 times
Reputation: 2440
Quote:
Originally Posted by tilli View Post
Even at places like NASA, a gifted individual needs to know how to respect and follow a command hierarchy that is never arranged by IQ score.


I don't see any way to sugar coat it, sorry. The ugly truth is that one does need to learn to adapt. To deal with it. I don't say that flippantly. I know it is easier said than done, but it is also the truth.


Yet, if you isolate us, you cause a whole different set of unpleasant consequences, and as you acknowledged, we still get bullied! The best way to prevent bullying is to learn to act normal and not aggravate people, and you learn how to act normal by being around normal kids and learning what is socially acceptable and what is not. When you are always with other little eggheads you learn to be insufferable and condescending while making terrible "jokes" about Avogadro's number and cracking yourself up. That's like bully attractant.

The most important lesson for the gifted to learn is when to shut up. I did learn that lesson eventually and I think the time has come.
When I was at NASA, there weren't that many people around me who were not gifted. It depended on the department. When I worked with the astronauts and engineers, they were all extremely high-functioning. The employees in the data facility were more typical, but still, eccentricity was more common than not. I imagine that it was similar in the other departments.

I personally have never been able to "learn to act normal." I have learned how to shut up. That's generally what I do, because I really don't know if something I'm going to say is going to seem weird or not. I wouldn't know about hanging out with other eggheads, because there wasn't anyone else I remember being like me in my school, except for a girl who was several years below me. She was even more withdrawn than I was.

As for the bullying, I was unusually small for my age. I was a year younger than my classmates, painfully shy and completely disinterested in typical childhood and teen activities. All these factors combined to make me a target for bullies. I think it frustrated them even more when I wouldn't do anything to defend myself. I was taught to turn the other cheek, so that's what I did.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2009, 10:03 PM
 
2,175 posts, read 2,232,891 times
Reputation: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by tilli View Post
always with other little eggheads

The most important lesson for the gifted to learn is when to shut up. I did learn that lesson eventually and I think the time has come.
Given your stereotyping and insulting terminology, it seems as if you decided it was better to be with the antagonists than to stand against them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2009, 10:58 PM
hsw
 
2,067 posts, read 4,410,254 times
Reputation: 1366
Individual humans aren't science experiments; doubt we'll ever know precise formula or algorithm for one's academic and career success when "mixing" DNA, family values/environment for learning&upward mobility, K-12 education, college and/or grad school, early career colleagues and inspirational bosses, etc etc

"Gifted" and "IQ" are murky, often subjective, pseudo-precise terms...usually used too early in one's life/career to matter; I'd argue only really know one's smartness/shrewdness at about age 20 academically and age 30 professionally/financially

Many high-powered people (consider google or Oracle or Apple co-founders) attended crappy undergrads or dropped out of college/grad school or were fired early in their career, etc; and many w/blue-chip college accomplishments eventually have laughably mediocre careers

Even smartest kids need to figure out (and need help from parents early in life to understand why) how to work for/with/against/manage dumber folks who may have power over one's career and life (and/or physical safety) until one reaches stage of career where financially immune

Sure, some places like leading hedge funds and a few young tech start-ups are relatively pure meritocracies (at least when they are small places; not enough smart people in world for any firm to not have lots of dumb people once more than ?50 employees)....but only relative to other organizations, not in some "efficient markets" fantasy (e.g., can face relatively dumb but annoying bosses or peers who are kids/relatives of founders or other powerful guys who can force a job for their relatives or pals)....even in most elite academia (like faculty in ComputerScience at Stanford), much ugly personality politics exist in one's career path; there may be guys much smarter and/or more accomplished than is one; need to deal with powerful admin types or investors or donors or Board members or other "customers" or competitors, etc etc

Aside from fantasies, even centimillionaire/multi-billionaire tech or hedge fund founders may have been squished and killed early in careers if didn't know how to play games of real world; being smarter and more technically brilliant allows one to be somewhat less socially adept as a salesman or manager, but most don't realize they may not be as smart as they had initially believed/predicted until facing real world of many other really smart, shrewd guys and many dumb but powerful bosses or customers or competitors or peers....until too late to learn and irreversible career stagnation/failure occurs

Vast majority of "gifted" kids never really amount to much in their careers, either in their college or professional or financial accomplishments, so it's dangerous to prep any kid for rare relative meritocracies where extraordinary one-dimensional skill sets may allow significant career success and financial independence by age 30

Also, don't forget that until past 15-25 yrs with development of modern tech and hedge fund industry, really smart guys often struggled in any non-academic career (and even to attain the few elite professorships at top 5 engineering schools)....the old joke in '70s was that MIT kids were much smarter than Harvard kids but the MIT kid would be hired, managed and fired later in life by some moron Harvard MBA...by age 40, the MIT engineer would be pushed out in favor of a cheaper, more productive 22yo MIT engineer...a sad era for smart guys indeed, given the lack of an entrepreneurial culture in tech/finance industries at time

Unlike today...never in history have so many of the world's wealthiest (and <40yo) guys been so damn smart, quantitative/analytic and relatively socially inept as salesmen or managers
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2009, 11:38 PM
 
2,175 posts, read 2,232,891 times
Reputation: 816
I keep forgetting that how much money one makes in a year or how high a position one hold are the measures of a worthwhile life.

Merry Christmas, indeed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2009, 11:48 PM
 
Location: southern california
50,408 posts, read 47,887,065 times
Reputation: 41838
for me, lots of talent none of it recognized encouraged shaped or developed. only found out i had it much later in life. became my own supporter leader later in life. dont expect parents to do it imany dont, if the school sees it they might be able to help. greatest story every told of this is that of jonathan winters.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-24-2009, 11:51 PM
 
2,199 posts, read 1,489,521 times
Reputation: 2440
Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
I keep forgetting that how much money one makes in a year or how high a position one hold are the measures of a worthwhile life.

Merry Christmas, indeed.
Not only do I agree 100%, but I think this is another commonality among some gifted people. Many would rather do what interests them rather than what fulfills ambitions of wealth and power. I may have had delusions of grandeur when I was young, but I was motivated more to explore the universe rather than get rich or climb the corporate ladder.

Funny, I still think this way. I guess it's another way in which I never learned to fit in.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2009, 12:19 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,412 posts, read 17,192,350 times
Reputation: 11792
Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
Not only do I agree 100%, but I think this is another commonality among some gifted people. Many would rather do what interests them rather than what fulfills ambitions of wealth and power. I may have had delusions of grandeur when I was young, but I was motivated more to explore the universe rather than get rich or climb the corporate ladder.

Funny, I still think this way. I guess it's another way in which I never learned to fit in.
Being successful at what interests you counts as success. Money isn't the only measure. Career success usually goes with money but not always. The question isn't how much you make at your career but how successful you are at your career. If it happens to be one where success results in earning more then that will be the yardstick but that's not always the case. You can be a brilliant surgeon who donates her time to the needy. Not being highly paid for what you do doesn't negate brilliance.

I have to agree with the poster above who talked about many "gifted" people going on to have mediocre carreers while others who didn't appear to have much early on are very successful. I also agree that it's in the 20's and 30's when you start to see real distinctions. All too often, giftedness in children is nothing more than a faster learning curve which means nothing once they're adults and their peers have had a chance to catch up.

I'm a prime example of this. In high school, I was, definitely, in the bottom of my class. I couldn't think my way out of a paper bag. By 25, I'd grown restless with life, I wanted more so I made changes. While my peers stopped developing around 20, I kept going. I outgrew them in my early 20's. At 20, you'd have pegged me for a loser. By 30 I was graduating at the top of my engineering class. The 20's are where my gifted friend from high school fell off the radar. She couldn't cut college. Last I heard she was working as a receptionist in a law firm having given up on going to law school.

For many, gifted only means fast learner when they are a child. It doesn't mean they'll be adults who are ahead of their peers. Many just blend into the crowd after high school, like my best friend did. She wasn't faster than everyone else by the time she was 20. Many of us slower learners were passing her by.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2009, 12:30 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,412 posts, read 17,192,350 times
Reputation: 11792
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
for me, lots of talent none of it recognized encouraged shaped or developed. only found out i had it much later in life. became my own supporter leader later in life. dont expect parents to do it imany dont, if the school sees it they might be able to help. greatest story every told of this is that of jonathan winters.
Congratulations on pulling yourself up by your bootstraps. While I didn't find out I was gifted as an adult, I did accomplish more post high school than anyone ever thought I would. Seemed I had more going for me than they thought. Like you, I made this discovery myself and took care of my own growth to increase my potential.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-25-2009, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Earth
3,456 posts, read 4,960,048 times
Reputation: 3637
Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
Given your stereotyping and insulting terminology, it seems as if you decided it was better to be with the antagonists than to stand against them.
I agree. Censoring yourself when you are gifted is exactly what a bully strives for. It is also very empowering for them, as it validates their behavior and encourages them to continue, as does the attitude (in this case, implied) that a gifted individual who never "learns to shut up" somehow deserves to be bullied.

If a gifted individual would rather live his/her life that way, then so be it--to each his own. However, I could never censor myself, especially b/c I was intimidated by someone who was jealous or spiteful of my intelligence. Moreover, I believe in tolerance and diversity rather than conformity and censorship. I could never be somone I'm not, even if it meant that my life would be much easier. But then, I always did have a lot of disdain for sell-outs
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $89,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Education
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:52 AM.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top