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Old 12-23-2009, 09:34 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
Gifted often just means ahead in school.
"Giftedness is asynchronous development in which advanced cognitive abilities and heightened intensity combine to create inner experiences and awareness that are qualitatively different from the norm. This asynchrony increases with higher intellectual capacity. The uniqueness of the gifted renders them particularly vulnerable and requires modifications in parenting, teaching and counseling in order for them to develop optimally."

- The Columbus Group
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:03 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
"Giftedness is asynchronous development in which advanced cognitive abilities and heightened intensity combine to create inner experiences and awareness that are qualitatively different from the norm. This asynchrony increases with higher intellectual capacity. The uniqueness of the gifted renders them particularly vulnerable and requires modifications in parenting, teaching and counseling in order for them to develop optimally."

- The Columbus Group
One thing you had to respect about the old-line Communist nations is that they set about evaluating children for their unique gifts and put a disproportionate share of the country's resources to develop their gifts. As they were certainly NOT doing this for the ideal of maximizing each individual's ability for the goal of self-actualization, we must accept that it was to benefit the society for each person's gifts to be realized to the greatest extent possible. They achieved this through demanding, highly specialized schools where children were able to associate with their true peers, not just their community age-mates.

Of course, one down side of their system was that the children had no choice in the matter.

What I don't understand is believing that society is best served by failing to maximize the potential of children who stand to help society make the most progress.
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Old 12-23-2009, 10:32 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
One thing you had to respect about the old-line Communist nations is that they set about evaluating children for their unique gifts and put a disproportionate share of the country's resources to develop their gifts. As they were certainly NOT doing this for the ideal of maximizing each individual's ability for the goal of self-actualization, we must accept that it was to benefit the society for each person's gifts to be realized to the greatest extent possible. They achieved this through demanding, highly specialized schools where children were able to associate with their true peers, not just their community age-mates.

Of course, one down side of their system was that the children had no choice in the matter.

What I don't understand is believing that society is best served by failing to maximize the potential of children who stand to help society make the most progress.
Well, at the same time, the Soviets' research was dedicated to proving that those self-same differences did not exist.

It was fascinating examining the contrasting goals of the system.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:03 PM
 
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Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
Well, at the same time, the Soviets' research was dedicated to proving that those self-same differences did not exist.

It was fascinating examining the contrasting goals of the system.
I didn't know that. I thought they did the same type of academic hothousing. I thought that was the "from each according to his ability" part of the program. That sort of makes sense, although I had thought it might be the "some animals are more equal than others" principal at work.

So they were doing both at the same time. That's doublethink for you.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:08 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
I didn't know that. I thought they did the same type of academic hothousing. I thought that was the "from each according to his ability" part of the program. That sort of makes sense, although I had thought it might be the "some animals are more equal than others" principal at work.

So they were doing both at the same time. That's doublethink for you.
Don't worry - a 5-year plan can solve what is wrong with our educations system!
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:14 PM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
"Giftedness is asynchronous development in which advanced cognitive abilities and heightened intensity combine to create inner experiences and awareness that are qualitatively different from the norm. This asynchrony increases with higher intellectual capacity. The uniqueness of the gifted renders them particularly vulnerable and requires modifications in parenting, teaching and counseling in order for them to develop optimally."

- The Columbus Group
Indeed. Hoagie's has a bit on asynchronicity, too, but I'm too lazy to look for it.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:32 PM
NCN
 
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We had no gifted classes when I was in elementary school, but the gifted students got special assignments. If you were really good at a subject and someone else had problems in the subject, you were assigned to help that person keep up. I consider that to be executive training that many executives never have the opportunity to experience.

Pity that poor student that has to keep his mind occupied so he will not be disruptive. Poor thing. Discipline is a necessary skill that one needs to learn. Consideration of others is an important part of life that I think we are missing in most classrooms today.

Both my children were in gifted and talented classes, but I wonder how much they did not learn about others because they were in a more challenging class. I sometimes think the gifted and talented classes are just another way to segregate.

I think the bottom line is that we are all put here for a reason and we will get the opportunity to do that reason no matter what the classroom holds. The learning is inside the individual and some will learn no matter the obstacles. Others will be given every opportunity and end up on drugs. I have seen it many times: college educated in the best of colleges and amounting to nothing. It's a mystery.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:40 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
Don't worry - a 5-year plan can solve what is wrong with our educations system!
Isn't that what NCLB was/is?

I call it No Child Allowed Ahead. It's a great preventer of giftedness services for those children who, through no fault of their own, have trouble fitting in with the American society that hold intellectivity as an obstacle to an orderly society.

So how do you get the profoundly gifted to just put down their book and turn on American Idol or America's Next Top Model or Dancing with the Stars?

If they don't watch tv, they'll never fit in.
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Old 12-23-2009, 11:54 PM
 
2,175 posts, read 2,200,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
I think the bottom line is that we are all put here for a reason and we will get the opportunity to do that reason no matter what the classroom holds. The learning is inside the individual and some will learn no matter the obstacles. Others will be given every opportunity and end up on drugs. I have seen it many times: college educated in the best of colleges and amounting to nothing. It's a mystery.
But with your options comes also "some will thrive, given support, who would not without support."

You seem to deny this, to exclude that possibility, and I cannot for the life of me fathom why.
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Old 12-24-2009, 05:31 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
22,123 posts, read 16,704,966 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCN View Post
We had no gifted classes when I was in elementary school, but the gifted students got special assignments. If you were really good at a subject and someone else had problems in the subject, you were assigned to help that person keep up. I consider that to be executive training that many executives never have the opportunity to experience.

Pity that poor student that has to keep his mind occupied so he will not be disruptive. Poor thing. Discipline is a necessary skill that one needs to learn. Consideration of others is an important part of life that I think we are missing in most classrooms today.

Both my children were in gifted and talented classes, but I wonder how much they did not learn about others because they were in a more challenging class. I sometimes think the gifted and talented classes are just another way to segregate.

I think the bottom line is that we are all put here for a reason and we will get the opportunity to do that reason no matter what the classroom holds. The learning is inside the individual and some will learn no matter the obstacles. Others will be given every opportunity and end up on drugs. I have seen it many times: college educated in the best of colleges and amounting to nothing. It's a mystery.

Discipline is the main reason I'd prefer a tracked system. It's equally hard to not be disruptive when the material goes right over your head. I hate trying to find middle ground when I know I'm coming in way too high for some students and others will be bored. I wish we'd get over our issues with tracking. Parents are so afraid their child won't make the top track that they don't want a top track.

ITA with the bolded section of your post. School is only part of the picture. It's not intended to be the be all end all. If it were, children would spend more than 1/4th of their waking time in school. School is intended to catch kids who are falling, to make sure everyone is exposed to certain material and, really, as a check mark that you meet the minimum requirements. If we wanted it to be something else, we'd test differently than we do.

Right now, at least here, we grade schools based on the number of students passing on the state exams and the percentage who graduate. This puts the emphasis on the average to below average students (the ones who might pass if you work with them harder). Society has declared that the percentage passing is the thing to raise to benefit society. If school were intended to give everyone what they need, they'd grade us on average test score not percent passing. If we were graded on average test score, 10 points higher for a gifted child would count the same as 10 points higher for a special ed child struggling with a reading disability. Right now, the 10 points for the gifted child don't even enter into the equation while the 10 points for a child on the other end can be everything if they result in that child passing when they would have failed.

I also agree on G&T tracks segregating. Originally, the G&T track at my dd's old school changed teachers for different subjects. This allowed them to mix more with the non G&T kids. Unfortunately, it turns out that a teacher has to spend a certain amount of time with a child per day or she has to be subject matter certified instead of having general certification so they split into two segregated classes. The parents hated it because you could no longer have a child who was ahead in one subject attend the G&T class and the kids developed a tier system because of it. This, unfortunately, is why we don't have tracking. One problem is it ranks everyone with some feeling they are better than others. When it comes to tracking/not tracking we have to pick our poison. There is no perfect system.

I don't mind my dd being pushed up grades or taking honors classes because she also has normal classes that are on her grade level. She gets some of both. She wouldn't in a separate track/school gifted program.
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