All this talk about the profoundly gifted and what they need... (computers, quantitative)

[StarlaJane]

Originally Posted by tilli

What makes you think a gifted program prevents bullying? The program I was in made it worse, not better, as it separated us and hung a label on us, it was like wearing a target. I was bullied, I know exactly what it feels like.

I never said that it did. In fact, I agree with you that it makes it worse (please read what I wrote in response to IvoryT's response). I merely stated that gifted children need more support but that gifted programs seem to do more harm than good.

[tilli]

Exactly. Not true.

How do you figure? You think all the gifted wind up in some elite position where they never have to interact with normal people?

[tilli]

I never said that it did. In fact, I agree with you that it makes it worse (please read what I wrote in response to IvoryT's response). I merely stated that gifted children need more support but that gifted programs seem to do more harm than good.

Alright, then what point were you trying to make by scolding me about your perception that I am insensitive to the plight of the bullied?

[NYCAnalyst]

Originally Posted by tilli

How do you figure? You think all the gifted wind up in some elite position where they never have to interact with normal people?

Many of them do.

Examples: NASA, McKinsey, Bain, Renaissance Technologies, DE Shaw, etc.

[StarlaJane]

Originally Posted by tilli

Alright, then what point were you trying to make by scolding me about your perception that I am insensitive to the plight of the bullied?

I said that it was insensitive to state that one just needs to "learn to deal with it." That was what I understood from your post, and I think that is an insensitive reaction to gifted individuals who are bullied for being different. Does it mean that they should be sheltered and placed in "gifted programs"? Perhaps not. But they do need to be:
a) acknowedged as gifted;
b) nurtured and supported, perhaps more than the average student
I recently took an education class and here are direct lines from the textbook (Eduational Psychology):
"Teachers are successful only about 10%-50% of time in picking out gifted children in their classes"
"Truly gifted children are not the students who simply learn quickly with little effort. The work of gifted students is original, extremely advanced for their age, and potentially of lasting importance."
"Studies of geniuses and prodigies in many fields document that deep and prolonged practice is necessary to achieve at the highest levels...the families of prodigies tend to be child-centered and devote hours to supporting the development of their child's gifts."
"...it would be incorrect to say that every gifted student is superior in adjustment and emotional health. In fact, gifted adolescents, especially girls, are more likely to be depressed and to report social and emotional problems. Many difficulties confront a gifted child, including boredom and frustration as well as isolation (sometimes even ridicule) from peers... Adjustment problems may be greatest for the most gifted, those in the highest range of academic ability."
Moreover, those who are gifted tend to be incapable of adjusting. It isn't merely a case of not wanting to:
"Because thier language development is well developed, they may be seen as show offs when they are simply expressing themselves. They are sensitive to the expectations and feeling of others, so these students may be very vulnerable to criticism and taunts. Because they are goal-directed and focused, they may seem stubborn and uncooperative."
Thus, if you put these students in with "regular" students, then they will have a very difficult time and will probably be bullied by teachers and other students, which is exactly what happens when gifted students are not correctly identified and placed. Moreover, these issues continue well into adulthood if the student is never properly placed b/c they never develop relationships with like-minded individuals who understand them.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by NYCAnalyst

Not true.

Really? Who will she be living and working with if nor normal people?

Her career choices, right now, are either lawyer or architect. Either one will put her in contact with the general public quite a bit.

[Ivorytickler]

Originally Posted by StarlaJane

Right, but what I was saying was that this usually continues into adulthood b/c gifted individuals are a minority. However, I am not sure that would entail that legislation be enacted. I find that support from others (teachers, other students, friends, co-workers) is key (I think this explains your observations re: the gifted individuals that you know), which was why I said that gifted students need more support, especially from teachers. However, as others have pointed out, it needs to be the kind of support that will eventually lead to self-reliance.

Re: academics, it seems that most agree that gifted programs do more harm than good. The high school that I attended did not have a gifted program but instead grouped students according to ability. And then the gifted kids ended up together all of the time in those higher level classes; they rarely fraternized with students of other levels, and the same was true for students of every level. Whether this system is good or bad is hard to determine. But the students in the higher level classes really excelled and did not experience a lot of bullying.

This is, exactly, why my dd prefers to simply be placed a grade or two up for classes. That way (her words not mine) she's with normal people AND she gets to learn new things. Even though she's the youngest one in the class, the other students accept her. Granted it's created a problem in that she's wanting to do things like wear make up like the older girls. We allow some so she fits in better. She's also turned into quite the fashion diva, . She wants to be seen as normal. Fortunately, she's figurig out how to pull that off.

[StarlaJane]

Originally Posted by Ivorytickler

This is, exactly, why my dd prefers to simply be placed a grade or two up for classes. That way (her words not mine) she's with normal people AND she gets to learn new things. Even though she's the youngest one in the class, the other students accept her. Granted it's created a problem in that she's wanting to do things like wear make up like the older girls. We allow some so she fits in better. She's also turned into quite the fashion diva, . She wants to be seen as normal. Fortunately, she's figurig out how to pull that off.

Wow, that sounds like such a great compromise and it doesn't surprise me that she is doing well. I am glad that it is working out for her. I agree that it is a much better solution than gifted classes, which sometimes tend to do exactly what gifted students don't want them to do (i.e. single them out). However, some gifted students prefer such programs b/c in such classes/programs, they do not stand out or are negatively labeled b/c they are among students who behave/think similarly and with whom they are able to develop a strong support system.
But really, each individual is different and needs to be given the opportunity to decide what kind of program is going to be the best for him/her self. Fortunately, more and more schools are allowing students to do this.
It's really funny that you mention that "fashion diva" behavior! I think your daughter has found a way to channel her creativity while engaging with her "normal" (I actually prefer the term "average") peers.

[tilli]

Many of them do.

Examples: NASA, McKinsey, Bain, Renaissance Technologies, DE Shaw, etc.

Even at places like NASA, a gifted individual needs to know how to respect and follow a command hierarchy that is never arranged by IQ score.

I said that it was insensitive to state that one just needs to "learn to deal with it."

I don't see any way to sugar coat it, sorry. The ugly truth is that one does need to learn to adapt. To deal with it. I don't say that flippantly. I know it is easier said than done, but it is also the truth.

Thus, if you put these students in with "regular" students, then they will have a very difficult time and will probably be bullied by teachers and other students, which is exactly what happens when gifted students are not correctly identified and placed. Moreover, these issues continue well into adulthood if the student is never properly placed b/c they never develop relationships with like-minded individuals who understand them.

Yet, if you isolate us, you cause a whole different set of unpleasant consequences, and as you acknowledged, we still get bullied! The best way to prevent bullying is to learn to act normal and not aggravate people, and you learn how to act normal by being around normal kids and learning what is socially acceptable and what is not. When you are always with other little eggheads you learn to be insufferable and condescending while making terrible "jokes" about Avogadro's number and cracking yourself up. That's like bully attractant.

The most important lesson for the gifted to learn is when to shut up. I did learn that lesson eventually and I think the time has come.

[NYCAnalyst]

Originally Posted by tilli

Even at places like NASA, a gifted individual needs to know how to respect and follow a command hierarchy that is never arranged by IQ score.

False. Many of the elite companies are a meritocracy, not a bureaucracy where the older employees always trump the younger ones. If the subordinate is right and the manager is wrong, that is the way it is.