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I agree. As long as we don't value education, we will not have real education. Students have to want what we're selling. Right now, it seems, that for most, education is something they tolerate at best and oppose at worst.
YUUPPP!!!
Another person who sees the problems for what it is!!!!!!!!
Bottom line is this country is full of students who do not value learning...........same for their dolt parents.
You can come up with all sorts of fancy solutions, but if you do not change the aforementioned FACT, well, nothing is going to change.
Thank-you! You can do anything fancy you want and blow all the money you want but if the parents and students don't value education it won't matter. Natural consequences like flunking and retention need to come back to help make students more accountable.
Thank-you! You can do anything fancy you want and blow all the money you want but if the parents and students don't value education it won't matter. Natural consequences like flunking and retention need to come back to help make students more accountable.
Improving student accountability will go farther to improve education than anything you can do with teachers or the curriculum. Yet, WHAT do they attack?
I find it very difficult to teach kids who don't want to learn. At best, they just don't learn. At worst, they try to make sure no one else learns either. The latter set is why I'm leaving teaching. I don't know what to do with them. If I send them to the office, I get my hand slapped and they know it. They have the upper hand and they can make a classroom hell.
I had three students in one class whose goal was to see how little we could learn. (one because she liked feeling superior so once she knew the answer, we were done, and two because they just didn't want to learn anything and thought being disruptive would slow things down). You know what happened? I got written up for sending kids to the office too many times. Never mind that it was the same three kids (plus three more who wouldn't do this on their own but would jump on the band wagon) and that other teachers confirm having issues with these same kids. Ugh.
I will miss teaching the kids who want to learn but it's not worth taking a 50% pay cut to take this job if I have to deal with the ones who don't want to learn. IMO, the solution is to let them repeat the class/grade as often as it takes for them to get it.
Improving student accountability will go farther to improve education than anything you can do with teachers or the curriculum. Yet, WHAT do they attack?
I find it very difficult to teach kids who don't want to learn. At best, they just don't learn. At worst, they try to make sure no one else learns either. The latter set is why I'm leaving teaching. I don't know what to do with them. If I send them to the office, I get my hand slapped and they know it. They have the upper hand and they can make a classroom hell.
I had three students in one class whose goal was to see how little we could learn. (one because she liked feeling superior so once she knew the answer, we were done, and two because they just didn't want to learn anything and thought being disruptive would slow things down). You know what happened? I got written up for sending kids to the office too many times. Never mind that it was the same three kids (plus three more who wouldn't do this on their own but would jump on the band wagon) and that other teachers confirm having issues with these same kids. Ugh.
I will miss teaching the kids who want to learn but it's not worth taking a 50% pay cut to take this job if I have to deal with the ones who don't want to learn. IMO, the solution is to let them repeat the class/grade as often as it takes for them to get it.
I'm sorry to hear that you are leaving teaching. Yet your story is too common. Best of luck to you on your new career path.
IMO, the solution is to let them repeat the class/grade as often as it takes for them to get it.
The problem is that we KNOW that this does not work. Teaching the same thing over and over, especially if you do it in the same way will not get those kids to learn.
The problem is that we KNOW that this does not work. Teaching the same thing over and over, especially if you do it in the same way will not get those kids to learn.
If you change how the course is presented, it *might* work, but we don't know that.
It works if the issue is failure to apply themselves on the part of the studentand if you READ my post, that's who I'm talking about!!! It doesn't work if the student has given it their all and just can't make it.
The problem I'm trying to fix is what to do with students who just don't apply themselves. My answer is to let them repeat the grade until they get that they have to apply themselves to pass. Kids who just struggle with the material are another issue. They need something different. Most kids who fail my class do so because they did not apply themselves NOT because they couldn't pass if they tried.
At the high school level, one option is an online credit recovery course if the student wants something different. Different is available.
And DUH to academic achievement of retained kids being poorer than those passed. They wouldn't be failing if they had the same academic achievement. They are either not applying themselves or are struggling with the material. Either way, I would expect their academic acheivement to be lower than non retained students. Until the student applies themselves, nothing will change. For the student who struggles with the material, seeing it a second time may help but they, likely, need some other form of intervention as well.
I know I've only been teaching 4 years but my experience is that most failures are due to lack of student effort. Retention would be the correct choice for them. Most of my students who have repeated my class have done, remarkably, well the second time around because they actually put in some effort. Sometimes the best lesson we can teach them is they aren't going to pass if they don't try.
[A studeQUOTE=nana053;25070848]The problem is that we KNOW that this does not work. Teaching the same thing over and over, especially if you do it in the same way will not get those kids to learn.
If you change how the course is presented, it *might* work, but we don't know that.[/quote]
Teaching them the same way won't always work, but as Ivorytickler said, many times the student didn't pass due to a lack of effort. I see this time and again here. I also had a student this year in my Spanish class who was a high school sophomore and couldn't read the year 2015 or the number 44,000,000 nor did she know what physical features were. She is also in 4th grade math. This student is not special ed. We have the perfect recipe for a dropout and it will be amazing how she functions in society. We have junior high ELL students who have lived in the US their entire lives and spent little to no time in Mexico who are funtionally illiterate. We are doing students no favors by passing them along. Then we wonder why we are graduating only 70%.
[A studeQUOTE=nana053;25070848]The problem is that we KNOW that this does not work. Teaching the same thing over and over, especially if you do it in the same way will not get those kids to learn.
If you change how the course is presented, it *might* work, but we don't know that.
Teaching them the same way won't always work, but as Ivorytickler said, many times the student didn't pass due to a lack of effort. I see this time and again here. I also had a student this year in my Spanish class who was a high school sophomore and couldn't read the year 2015 or the number 44,000,000 nor did she know what physical features were. She is also in 4th grade math. This student is not special ed. We have the perfect recipe for a dropout and it will be amazing how she functions in society. We have junior high ELL students who have lived in the US their entire lives and spent little to no time in Mexico who are funtionally illiterate. We are doing students no favors by passing them along. Then we wonder why we are graduating only 70%.
We HAVE to stop passing them until they meet the requirements regardless of what it takes to get them to the point they meet them.
When I've had students repeat because they just didn't do the work that first year, I find they come back as, totally, different students. I had one repeater this year. Due to who mom and dad were, I was pushed to push him through but he just didn't do enough to be passed. I was instructed to call his parents at the end of the year when he failed. Other teachers warned me NOT to talk to mom so I called dad. To my surprise, he thanked me. He told me it was about time someone failed him (I about fell over). He was in my class again this year. He EARNED a good grade in the class. He showed up, he attended class, he did most of his work. He went from being a major PITA the first year to a model student (my model anyway. My model student isn't a slave to grades. He participates, learns, takes what he needs but is human and sometimes says, "That's too much work for an A" or just refuses to chase grades. I like students who can say no to the A.) I even got a hug from him at graduation. I think I taught him more by failing him than I did by teaching him.
I would agree that doing the same thing again is senseless *IF* the student really tried. There's no point in doing again what the student has already done unless the problem is they never did it in the first place and that is the case with the vast majority of kids who fail my class. I haven't had to boost a grade yet but I will not fail a student who gave it their all. I don't consider a D- in chemistry social promotion because they're not going on to another science class with that D- and I'm not telling the world they're profficient. Fortunately, all of my, truely, struggling students have managed to pass on their own. The ones who didn't try failed.
There are some things the charter school my dd's attended got right. One was what to do with remedial students (I still swear by their k-8 program but I wouldn't touch the high school with a 10 foot pole unless my only other option were much worse districts). If a student finished 4th grade but wasn't reading on a 4th grade level, that student got assigned to read to 2nd and 3rd graders the next year as their community service. For math, they allowed placement into the math group where the student belonged (multi grade classrooms with multiple groups at different levels within each class). And I LOVED this. There was a homework room. That's where kids who didn't do their homework went during choice time (their version of recess). You made the choice to go to the homework room by not doing your homework. You know, my kids don't have a problem getting their homework done and I don't even have to ask them whether they have any. The, occaisional, missed assignment is, usually, something they just didn't want to do and that's ok because they have to learn to deal with what to do when they didn't do their work as well. Good life lessons IMO.
Last edited by Ivorytickler; 07-08-2012 at 03:24 PM..
I know I've only been teaching 4 years but my experience is that most failures are due to lack of student effort. Retention would be the correct choice for them. Most of my students who have repeated my class have done, remarkably, well the second time around because they actually put in some effort. Sometimes the best lesson we can teach them is they aren't going to pass if they don't try.
This is the major reason I fail students of all abilities, types, genders, races, ethnicities, persuasions, or personalities: simple failure to do the work.
I'm sure I'm not alone in saying this, but I've basically made it clear that if you turn in the work in my class, I will give you *something.* It may not be an A, but it will be something. Mathematically, something is better than nothing.
Still, every single year, I have kids who get zeroes for not turning in the work, and those are the ones who fail.
This is the major reason I fail students of all abilities, types, genders, races, ethnicities, persuasions, or personalities: simple failure to do the work.
I'm sure I'm not alone in saying this, but I've basically made it clear that if you turn in the work in my class, I will give you *something.* It may not be an A, but it will be something. Mathematically, something is better than nothing.
Still, every single year, I have kids who get zeroes for not turning in the work, and those are the ones who fail.
You do realize that it's YOUR fault, right? (sarcasm)
This drives me nuts. The way I have my grading set up, a student could do their homework, get 50% on labs and quizzes the first time around, copy someone elses correct work, turn it back in and get 50% of the missed credit, then turn around and get 40% on my tests and pass my class. Yet, it's a reflection on me when kids fail??? Yes, I think I made it to easy to pass....
They want to make it even easier by giving a 50% zero for everything.
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They are either not applying themselves or are struggling with the material. Either way, I would expect their academic acheivement to be lower than non retained students. Until the student applies themselves, nothing will change. For the student who struggles with the material, seeing it a second time may help but they, likely, need some other form of intervention as well. 
We HAVE to stop passing them until they meet the requirements regardless of what it takes to get them to the point they meet them. 
I think I taught him more by failing him than I did by teaching him.
(sarcasm)