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Some schools will put any kid in TAG (as it was called at my kids' schools) whose parents request it. This was true in my district when my kids went there.
Some schools will put any kid in TAG (as it was called at my kids' schools) whose parents request it. This was true in my district when my kids went there.
Yes. As I said, "for the majority of programs that use an IQ number as their standard."
I think AP classes were a waste of time. I never once used them in college. I had the option of using the credit earned from the tests in college, but that really in the long run didn't get me further in my college career. Also whose to say these AP classes taught the necessary foundation to make you excel in college. I fortunately did excel in college, but that was after I found how to study in college. I think that your child would be better off taking the bare minimum for high school and then go to community college for a few years and then make them transfer to college. Then an SAT or ACT or whatever will not matter and they can just transition into take more demanding classes with a more fundamental foundation (it's what people do in other countries).
How so? I knew quite a few people who went this route. At least in California I've noticed that high schools now a days, unless they are some sort of magnet school or cater to a population of kids that live in an area where the API (academic performance index) of their individual school is greater than 95%, that it made more sense to finish high school in 3 years with only the minimum and then go off to community college and formally learn subjects at their own pace and at the same time earn college credit. Taking SAT or the ACT merely shows how well you can take the SAT or ACT. It really was not a metric for college. Also SAT II measures what exactly? It's entirely subjective based on the person who is scoring it. Not in anyway does it represent any type of objectivity. If you answered a question that does not agree with the grader, then to some extent you fail that test. I'm not sure how that measures your ability to get into college?
But that's how I saw it, mind you I took all of the "AP" and "Honors" and "challenge" courses out there. They really amounted to beans in my humble opinion.
This all being said, why does one need to follow a traditional educational path? It's not worst advice ever, especially since you didn't defend your reason as to why you felt that way. I speak from experience not from just casual observation. Why do people naturally assume that traditional education as we have known it is the be all end all of how things should be done?
By the way, those people who did go that route are actually quite successful. A good friend of mine graduated high school with the bare minimum at 16. Finished community college by 18, went to a private school and triple majored in business, pre-law, and to balance the other two English. She finished by 21 and went off first to Business school and got an Masters in Accounting and then went to Law school after. I believe at the moment she is a junior partner at a major law firm in San Diego. All in all, it didn't really matter that she did the bare minimum, just that she worked her bum off after she finished high school.
Are the teachers arguing that even the ones they offer it to don't have the cognitive ability? Bizarre!
They were saying that many 16 and 17 year olds do not have the ability to think as abstractly as college students do (would we expect them to?) and that just because they were taking an AP course or two, we as parents should not expect them to get 5's on the AP exams or receive college credit for these courses. They suggested that we look at these as more focused subject courses that offer a greater challenge to the student who happens to enjoy and excel in those subjects.
In so many threads I read of parents boasting their children being in AP classes and being in Gifted and Talented programs.
Is it that so many kids are exceptional? Or is it that our educational standards have dipped to an all time low and those in AP classes and G&T programs would have been what was norm 30 and 40 years ago.
It's clear that expectations have lowered considerably. It's all about the 'Feel Good Factor' now as opposed to higher academics. It's more important to make the students feel good and feel successful that slowly the academic expectations slid downward to accomodate that.
Back 30 and 40 years ago, there wasn't any such thing as AP or G&T. Students were expected to meet academic standards or stay behind the next year. On the rare occasion a student was truely exceptional, he or she would be moved ahead a year, but that was rare.
What do you think?
Educational standards have dropped and they will continue to drop. I was shocked, when I student taught, at what passed for a chemistry class these days. They, barely, got through equilibrium. I know we got a lot farther in my regular chemistry class in high school. The pace had to be about 1.2 times the pace of a chemistry class today and none of us complained. My chemistry kids complained all the time about the pace and I was taking it slow. I was told when I hired in that it's a good year when you get to acids and bases. We covered, at least, 4 topics beyond that in my chemistry class in high school. Honors chem, in my high school, covered the entire book which was about 6 more chapters.
Physics was even worse because the students can't do the math. First semester went slow due to math remediation. By second semester, enough of the struggling students left to pick up the pace but I still couldn't get through all of the material I needed to.
What's really sad is how standards have dropped in college. I had to take an under grad math class for my math major and couldn't believe how remdial it was and how much most of the students struggled. I can't blame companies for leaving this country. Our graduates are getting dumber and dumber.
Educational standards have dropped and they will continue to drop...
...Physics was even worse because the students can't do the math.
Algebra or calculus based? I'm assuming algebra. I took algebra based physics in high school and it was all right-angle trig. Once you get the SOH CAH TOA down, it is really simple math. Heck, even the most basic $12 scientific calculator can do it for you, too.
itsallthesametome, I agree. My 16 year old daughter has been homeschooled but is supplimented by a couple high school classes. She started at the local community college this semester and is Junior status at the HS. I have never had her participate in any testing since 3rd or 4th grade. By the time she finishes next year with the high school classes she still wants, she will already have a good start on college. Another year and she can enter a university to finish her degree by the age of 20.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler
Educational standards have dropped and they will continue to drop. I was shocked, when I student taught, at what passed for a chemistry class these days. They, barely, got through equilibrium. I know we got a lot farther in my regular chemistry class in high school. The pace had to be about 1.2 times the pace of a chemistry class today and none of us complained. My chemistry kids complained all the time about the pace and I was taking it slow. I was told when I hired in that it's a good year when you get to acids and bases. We covered, at least, 4 topics beyond that in my chemistry class in high school. Honors chem, in my high school, covered the entire book which was about 6 more chapters.
Physics was even worse because the students can't do the math. First semester went slow due to math remediation. By second semester, enough of the struggling students left to pick up the pace but I still couldn't get through all of the material I needed to.
What's really sad is how standards have dropped in college. I had to take an under grad math class for my math major and couldn't believe how remdial it was and how much most of the students struggled. I can't blame companies for leaving this country. Our graduates are getting dumber and dumber.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Schools expect a lot less than they used to, so kids of average intelligence come across as a lot smarter than they really are and are put in AP classes, not only in high school, but in elementary as well.
itsallthesametome, I agree. My 16 year old daughter has been homeschooled but is supplimented by a couple high school classes. She started at the local community college this semester and is Junior status at the HS. I have never had her participate in any testing since 3rd or 4th grade. By the time she finishes next year with the high school classes she still wants, she will already have a good start on college. Another year and she can enter a university to finish her degree by the age of 20.
This is exactly what I am talking about. Schools expect a lot less than they used to, so kids of average intelligence come across as a lot smarter than they really are and are put in AP classes, not only in high school, but in elementary as well.
I happen to agree with you to an extent BUT the push is coming from all directions (see my earlier post). Now, don't forget, AP/IB exams are national (or international in the case of IB) tests so the takers are being compared to a variety of students across the spectrum.
As I mentioned earlier the push from everywhere is to include more kids in the AP program. Basically take a chance on kids you wouldn't have in the past.
I took 3 AP classes in high school (C/O 1972) so yes, they've been around for awhile. Mine were US History, Biology and English12 (got kicked out of that one, the teacher was somewhat afraid of me-all 5'10" 120 lbs. I had the reputation among some of the women teachers of being difficult to manage).
One thing that many people don't understand about AP is that many colleges are now requiring them due to admission competition (my understanding is that the Ivies don't even look at them) and that most colleges will not apply any college credit for AP classes in the student's major. My oldest son ran in to that with Calc AB and BC and Physics as he went into Engineering. I had a student in AP Psych (now a doctoral candidate) who could have scored a 5 but was told not to bother because Psych was her major. I just thought of something, 3 of my former students are now in Doctoral programs for Psych, that makes 5 total over the years.
Actually JPS-Teacher I got 5's in all of the subjects that I took. Sadly when you get to a major university in California AP tests' credit really count for nothing. I knew several people in the same situation. You must be brainwashed by what ETS has been saying what it can do.
Of course I only took AP courses in C++, Java, Calculus, Physics and US History. Yes I got the equivalent of 20 credit hours for free, however, they did not apply toward college gpa, nor did they apply towards credit hours to graduate, they simply went into the other column. It was nice to look at on my transcript, but didn't do much for me. This however what was true at my university, may not necessarily be true at other public/private universities.
To be honest these areas helped to a great extent to what I studied in college, but the AP classes I took in high school were pretty remedial, kind of insulting for those of us who could easily handle advanced calculus and linear algebra. Oh well, but to get back to what I said before, yes AP classes were an absolute waste of time. I still stand by the fact that going to a community college and learning calculus or physics from there is still a better way to learn these subjects.
With some humility, what subject area do you teach?
I have Bachelor's Degree in Laser Physics, Plasma Science and Optical Engineering, a minor in education, a minor in Materials Science and a minor in object oriented programming. Also I have a multi-subject credential in mathematics and sciences.
One thing I notice from some Advanced Placement and even some Honors students I have taught via student teaching and even some substitute teaching, that many really can not handle the subjects from real college level courses versus the subject matter in an Advanced Placement courses which to me seem incredibly simplistic and misrepresent freshman courses such as those in mathematics, case and point: calculus and analytical geometry. I also found many high school seniors and juniors can't even tell me why a thicker wheel should fall down a slope faster than that of a skinnier wheel in physics(think inertia and of course mass!) or something as simple as a capacitor and it's role in circuit(remember the time constant and that it stores charge and fundamentally it's a type of pn materials), which are typical Advanced Placement courses.
One of my friends from high school retook Calculus at a community college because she wanted to be refreshed. She ended up teaching the class.
Well, I had a totally different experience teaching honors and AP students. I think even my worst students, still had an understanding of the material and in both my AP Chemistry and AP Calculus classes, all of my students passed the courses and their respective exams.
Calculus BC is considered one of the most difficult APs and even at colleges that don't give credit for the exam, students that have 5s are still able to place into upper level sophomore courses. Princeton is probably the best place for an undergraduate to study math and a score of 5 qualifies a student for placement into a upper level Linear Algebra course.
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I can't blame companies for leaving this country. Our graduates are getting dumber and dumber.
