Why do some parents defend bullying? (university, grades, students, good)

[bowian]

Originally Posted by Aconite

There are also many, many adults in authority who will respond "well, I didn't see it happen so I can't do anything about it". Right-o. And where would we be if the police took that view?

Don't you have that? I think some of them are glad not to see it so they won't have to deal with it.

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by syracusa

No, competition DOES NOT and HAS NEVER brought out "the best" in people, as someone implied on this thread. Competition brings up the best in PRODUCTS, not in people.

Some clever writer whose name I now forget once said:
"Competition brings the best in products and the worst in relationships".

What you call "clever" I call "trite." Competition's a natural part of being a human. Otherwise we wouldn't have sports and other kinds of competitions, which, though you personally might not be good at them, do bring out the best in many people.

Bullying's not about competing. It's about being unable to compete, and taking out your frustrations on those even less able to compete.

[Dub D]

Originally Posted by dgz

I agree. But what if he is 250 lbs and you weigh only 110? And what if you were a woman? Would you still have the nerve to challenge him to try to kick your ass, hoping it was a bluff? Because for someone who is much weaker, they have a lot more to lose if they're wrong. Telling kids to stand up for themselves is one things. Telling them to 'buck up' and take on a situation for which they might not be physically equipped is another.

A guy bullying a girl is bound to get his ass kicked. I've never seen a guy seriously bully a girl past age 12. Every time I've seen a guy go too far with jokes on a girl, other guys start bullying the bully and they don't stop for a long long time. I've seen the same thing happen when a really big guy bullies a really small guy. There are plenty of people who hate a bully and will step in after a while. My situation, I was getting bullied by a big guy that wasn't really a bully. I just rubbed him the wrong way from what my buddy said a few years ago. Nothing happen until he knew who my girlfriend was.

I would have totally fought him and probably get my ass kicked. We'd both probably get suspended for 3 days. I know after that, I would just blind side him and beat his ass for payback. Is that fair? Hell no but either is starting a fight with someone smaller than you.

I would have done this so I can get this out of my system without getting a felony. No one ever got criminal charges when fighting at school unless it was severe or a repeated series of fights.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by samston

So bullying is exclusive to the United States?

No.

But I feel safe in stating that the PREVALENCE and INTENSITY of bullying are worst here. No cross-cultural, empirical studies in my hand right now, but history of this country, tons of anecdotal evidence + personal experience are enough for me.

[syracusa]

Originally Posted by tribecavsbrowns

What you call "clever" I call "trite." Competition's a natural part of being a human. Otherwise we wouldn't have sports and other kinds of competitions, which, though you personally might not be good at them, do bring out the best in many people.

Bullying's not about competing. It's about being unable to compete, and taking out your frustrations on those even less able to compete.

Strongly disagree with your view.
I dare you to have a truly genuine, close relationship with anyone with whom you are in serious competition with, in some way or another.
Hostility, jealousy, anxiety, secretiveness, an unhealthy need for "privacy" and all sorts of other dark and yes, very natural, human feelings will resurface and eventually boil over.

To understand competition strictly in terms of what happens in an organized sport, governed, at least in theory, by the rules of fair-play and civility - is simply a darn superficial way of looking at competition.

Competition is different from merely striving for excellence in whatever you do (that's pure love of work/occupation, compensated with prestige or not). In essence, competition boils down to X wanting to be above Y, hence X feels free to shove Y out of the way so HE can win.
It's about the pecking order. Period.

If you think that such an orientation is conducive to thriving human relations, you are simply wrong. The competitive spirit can sure be tamed with civility - but mere civility does not translate into optimal human relations.

Competition is certainly "natural" - but so is pooping on the side of the road, in open view.

Some cultures decide to remain less Darwinistic/ "natural" than others and impose moral codes of behavior via religious dictates, community spirit and values, an emphasis on empathy and the needs of others, etc. Contemporary United States is NOT one of those. Which is OK - but DO expect to see many more cases of severe bullying in the name of reaching the top of whatever pecking order.

PS: "A world without sports"...oh, what on God's Earth would we do if we didn't have THAT elevated to the rank of Religion?
A life without sports would be a life that would...well...go on.

[samston]

Originally Posted by syracusa

No.

But I feel safe in stating that the PREVALENCE and INTENSITY of bullying are worst here. No cross-cultural, empirical studies in my hand right now, but history of this country, tons of anecdotal evidence + personal experience are enough for me.

lol... so? why is it of any concern?

[Cav Scout wife]

Originally Posted by Dub D

A guy bullying a girl is bound to get his ass kicked. I've never seen a guy seriously bully a girl past age 12. Every time I've seen a guy go too far with jokes on a girl, other guys start bullying the bully and they don't stop for a long long time. I've seen the same thing happen when a really big guy bullies a really small guy. There are plenty of people who hate a bully and will step in after a while. My situation, I was getting bullied by a big guy that wasn't really a bully. I just rubbed him the wrong way from what my buddy said a few years ago. Nothing happen until he knew who my girlfriend was.

I would have totally fought him and probably get my ass kicked. We'd both probably get suspended for 3 days. I know after that, I would just blind side him and beat his ass for payback. Is that fair? Hell no but either is starting a fight with someone smaller than you.

I would have done this so I can get this out of my system without getting a felony. No one ever got criminal charges when fighting at school unless it was severe or a repeated series of fights.

Let me assure you, guy on girl bullying DOES happen and more often than you would think. Especially in packs. Remember the book/movie Carrie? It was a group, started by the "popular girl" and her guy friends got involved and went right along with it.

Hell, that girl that just recently committed suicide was bullied by 9 brats, some of them guys and the guys RAPED her, and after her death they bad mouthed her memorial page. All cause she was a new kid from a different country, and pretty.

Let me assure you, girl bullying is MUCH more malicious and evil than guys bullying. Guy usually stick to the physical attacks, girls go for blood on the psychological level.

[bowian]

Originally Posted by bowian

Don't you have that? I think some of them are glad not to see it so they won't have to deal with it.

Corrected to say "Don't you hate that."

[bowian]

Originally Posted by Cav Scout wife

Let me assure you, guy on girl bullying DOES happen and more often than you would think. Especially in packs. Remember the book/movie Carrie? It was a group, started by the "popular girl" and her guy friends got involved and went right along with it.

Hell, that girl that just recently committed suicide was bullied by 9 brats, some of them guys and the guys RAPED her, and after her death they bad mouthed her memorial page. All cause she was a new kid from a different country, and pretty.

Let me assure you, girl bullying is MUCH more malicious and evil than guys bullying. Guy usually stick to the physical attacks, girls go for blood on the psychological level.

Evil, evil people. They just happen to be young. Where in the heck do they get it? Can it be all bad parenting or are they just born that way?

[tribecavsbrowns]

Originally Posted by syracusa

This...along with dozens of other bullying testimonials I have read on American forums - they never cease to make me shudder for my small children's future, if we somehow don't manage to pull off a repatriation soon.

Growing up, I was never part of the IN-CROWD in my home country but never, ever have I experienced anything remotely close to the attrocities I have read about here. Nor do I know anyone there that has experienced anything like this.

Even the most popular kids in the very snooty, cliquish and elitist high-school I attended, were quite civil towards all other children, peripheral or not, weak or not. I remember we would always say "Hi" to one another, it's just that I was never part of their clique and they never attempted to make me part of it. I just shrugged, I made a couple of low-key good friends, and high-school was just fine without having to be part of the popular gang. This is because the popular gang itself was in fact quite decent towards everyone else. Waow.

No, bullying of the kind Americans talk about IS NOT (I repeat NOT!!!) a part of normal "growing up".

I'm just going to go back to this post, because I think it shows where you're coming from. My public high school near Cleveland was exactly like the high school you describe in your home country. Most high schools are. Kids do unsavory things to rise in the pecking order, but almost all of them have some bounds of decency and compassion.

Bullying is about kids who don't have any bounds of decency and compassion. And the United States does have a large underclass of borderline-illiterate, completely immoral people, many of whom are segregated in the same schools. So in these schools, you see this kind of behavior.

My high school was very socioeconomically diverse. There were a couple of true bullies, meaning kids that belittle certain other kids mercilessly and without regard to any pecking order, only with regard to taking out their own frustrations. These kids were always from poor and/or broken families. The kids with any kind of money, or a father at home, or a sport or hobby to concentrate on, they never bullied anyone in the strict sense of the world. It just wasn't that important to them. It would be like sitting and poking a dying animal with a stick all day -- sick, and boring to boot.

My point is that we hear horrific stories about bullying and we (read: the media) want to make them into some grand social commentary about our country. The less interesting story is the truth: these bullies are just bad kids from bad families.

What does this mean for you? It means you don't have to worry. You're obviously smart and compassionate, and will in all likelihood raise pretty decent human beings. Your kids will be better off if you let them engage in healthy competitive activities, instead of conflating competition with sociopathy. You don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.