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And there are many businesses that would gladly revert to denying blacks entrance to their businesses if they could. It is completely plausible, which is amazing that so many people here on this forum would actually defend that practice.
And of course, why stop at businesses? Why not deny private schooling to blacks? Public Schooling? Churches? Universities? Neighborhoods?
And a lot of people here would likely defend that. Where would you stop? It's Repulsive. Absolutely despicable.
I am far from defending the practice, as I have said I bet I am the only one here who helped to shutdown a club that was having Neo-Nazi music rallies. In that situation I was happy to know a racist ran that club, I knew never to give them my money and through our protests and publicity they eventually went away.
Racism is group think, libertarians are for individual rights. No one would promote or defend a government instituion denying anyone.
I don't see anyone here defending the group thik of racism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackinac81
Well, considering that the vast majority of Americans in general were pretty racist in those days--both north and south--that's not too surprising. I don't believe racism was behind it.
Then you haven't read quotes and records of government proceedings talking about their goal.s
What you don't understand is... what freedom really is.
Freedom and liberty is not silencing what you don't like, but tolerance and an individual choice along with your ability to voice your opposition, without being silenced.
You make it sound as if all white Americans will ban all black Americans.
NO, you have been brainwashed to feel the way you do.
There would be many white Americans in today's world, that would stand shoulder to shoulder, hand in hand with you, to voice their opposition right along with you. Places like that would be out of business in the free market.
If someone is racist, so be it. It is their individual right.
It is your individual right to oppose it and your right to voice that opposition in a way to change their closed minded beliefs, without anger.
I am not saying all White Americans will ban Black Americans. I am saying that if such policies were made legal, then there are people who would certainly use them. And yes there are Whites who will protest such discrimination. Part of why I suggested that if Rand Paul became president and tried such a policy, I would rally people(of any and all ethnicites) to fight such a policy.
And I don't see myself as brainwashed. I see myself as someone who doesn't want to live in the type of America that existed in the 1950s. I don't want that. That America is something in my grandparents generation(Black and White) fought to change and to make things better.
Believe it or not, you don't have any RIGHT to eat at a private establishment, or purchase items from a private establishment. That's not a RIGHT, if I let you into my home that's a privilege. You have the privilege of dining or shopping wherever you want.
This is the attitude that is leading to the death of the West. The arrogant entitlement attitude that says that you have carte blanche to do whatever you want with MY property, you can tell me who I HAVE to serve, what I can and cannot eat, what I can and cannot watch, etc.
This is why I will never concede that progressivism is based on "noble" ideas. It's not, it's the antithesis to freedom. Progressive ideology is based on the idea of controlling other humans. It may mask it in flowery dewy eyed pie in the sky rhetoric about "equality, fairness, the brotherhood of man," etc but lurking just beneath the surface is a monster. Progressives, along with their hellish bride anti-"racists", don't care about "equality" or "civil" rights, or about people at all, they care about controlling people.
Progressive ideology turns government into your mother. Do this, don't do this, you can eat this, put that down, don't run, brush your hair, you can't wear that, turn that filth off, no you can't hire whoever you want, you have to be "fair," etc.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience."- C.S. Lewis
I don't think like you. I feel I should be able to eat wherever I want and everyone of every ethnicity should be able to eat at any establishment. That is part of what people in my grandparents generation fought for.
You are right, but he is also right, even though his ability to see this objectively is clouded by his experiences with racists in rural Georgia.
He is right because Black Americans do not have an incentive to embrace the liberty and freedom arguments made by libertarian-minded folks. The Democratic party (and most non-libertarian Republicans) support the continuation of "additional rights" that protect Blacks from "evil racists". That is a much better deal being offered if you look at it from the average Black person's perspective who has history on their side. One has to do a lot of research, critical thinking and throwing emotions (and possible experiences) out of the window to see why this line of thinking is still harmful IF our goal is to reach a colorblind society in the long run.
Of course, some may say a colorblind society is impossible, hence we need "additional rights" for minorities forever. The problem is, whites are taught by society/media to be colorblind, and see people as individuals. Blacks are taught to stick together as a group, and to be cautious of racism from whites as a group or downright suspicious of it at worst. These opposite paths aren't sustainable for a common end goal.
An example of this are "the Republicans/Tea Party are racist". The correct response should be, "no, there are some INDIVIDUALS who are racist in these groups", since there are bad INDIVIDUALS in every group. No one blames all liberals for Black racism from the New Black Panthers or anti-Semitic views from Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam.
Most people of any race or group aren't willing to scrutinize their "additional rights", it's not just a Black thing. It's the same disincentive for women to stop supporting government policies that favor women instead of being gender-neutral.
An example of this from a race and gender-neutral perspective is the "right" to Social Security above and beyond what one paid in plus interest.
I think you explained it better than I thought to explain it.
Originally posted by hilgi
I am far from defending the practice, as I have said I bet I am the only one here who helped to shutdown a club that was having Neo-Nazi music rallies. In that situation I was happy to know a racist ran that club, I knew never to give them my money and through our protests and publicity they eventually went away.
Racism is group think, libertarians are for individual rights. No one would promote or defend a government instituion denying anyone.
I don't see anyone here defending the group thik of racism.
Well, good for you then. Let me put this another way though. Relaxing/repealing things like the Civil Rights Act opens the door to allow people, organizations, businesses to exercise acts of racism against minorities. Some libertarians might not be racist themselves, but repealing civil rights enables the oppression of blacks.
And this is my problem with libertarianism. It naively assumes that people are naturally good and that if they are free to do whatever they want, then everything will work out all right in the end. I don't believe that. History has shown that stronger people, ethnic groups, companies, and societies will always try to oppress or extreminate weaker groups. You can say "That's life" but these are people we're talking about, and the exploitation of people--just because they're weaker--is morally wrong.
The Civil Rights Act was passed to finally stop southerners from exploiting blacks--after 300 years. For 300 years, southerners--and some northerners--enslaved, oppressed, even killed and terrorized blacks because they hated them. These people would not stop this behavior on their own. Laws had to be passed banning slavery, giving voting rights, and forcing integration of schools and businesses, because white southerners hated black people and had no interest in seeing them succeed. And as my experience in the South has told me, that attitude is still prevalent today.
And repealing the civil rights act, while technically giving "freedom" for white business owners to deny access to blacks, would actually take away that same freedom from another group of people, and would lead to many worse things that we've already dealt with as a nation.
And this is my problem with libertarianism. It naively assumes that people are naturally good and that if they are free to do whatever they want, then everything will work out all right in the end. I don't believe that. History has shown that stronger people, ethnic groups, companies, and societies will always try to oppress or extreminate weaker groups. You can say "That's life" but these are people we're talking about, and the exploitation of people--just because they're weaker--is morally wrong.
I don't think like you. I feel I should be able to eat wherever I want and everyone of every ethnicity should be able to eat at any establishment. That is part of what people in my grandparents generation fought for.
Right, and the only unfortunate thing is that we have reap what our grandparents have sown. Police state actions, eroding civil liberties, ever expanding wars, etc. These are the results of policies that the "baby boomer" generation gave us. Progressive ideology has America on the road to ruin. If you don't have the freedom to do controversial things, are you really free? If I can't include, or exclude who I want from MY property, from land that I OWN, then it's not my property. I'm merely a renter. There is no true ownership in this nation, Big Daddy gubmint owns all, they just rent parcels of land to us.
You want to be able to eat wherever you want, well that's too damn bad, or at least it should be. What you're basically saying is you want to be able to myself, and others what we have to do with our property. That's the attitude, the entitlement mindset, that's draining, enslaving, and crippling America.
.And this is my problem with libertarianism. It naively assumes that people are naturally good and that if they are free to do whatever they want, then everything will work out all right in the end. I don't believe that. History has shown that stronger people, ethnic groups, companies, and societies will always try to oppress or extreminate weaker groups. You can say "That's life" but these are people we're talking about, and the exploitation of people--just because they're weaker--is morally wrong.
And my problem with fascist "progressive" ideology is that it is all an evil twisted ideology all about control and power wrapped in noble sounding rhetoric. Progressives don't give two ****s about blacks, browns, or any other people, what they care about is control. You don't want people to be free, as evidenced by your statement. You think that people, ESPECIALLY white people, are evil and need to be kept under the boot heel of Big Daddy Gubmint. You also assume that the "oppressed" minorities you claim to care so much about, are so weak and pathetic they couldn't possibly make it in the world with out Mama Gubmint there to cater and pander to them.
I don't concede an inch of moral high ground to any so called "progressive." Progressive ideology is crippling weakening humanity and dragging us all into a politically correct fascist hell.
Right, and the only unfortunate thing is that we have reap what our grandparents have sown. Police state actions, eroding civil liberties, ever expanding wars, etc. These are the results of policies that the "baby boomer" generation gave us. Progressive ideology has America on the road to ruin. If you don't have the freedom to do controversial things, are you really free? If I can't include, or exclude who I want from MY property, from land that I OWN, then it's not my property. I'm merely a renter. There is no true ownership in this nation, Big Daddy gubmint owns all, they just rent parcels of land to us.
You want to be able to eat wherever you want, well that's too damn bad, or at least it should be. What you're basically saying is you want to be able to myself, and others what we have to do with our property. That's the attitude, the entitlement mindset, that's draining, enslaving, and crippling America.
Well the America that existed back in the 1950's, when such racist practices were legal, would not be helpful to me. It is certain not an environment I would not want to live in.
Oh, Katiana, I could tell stories about living in the rural south that would make your blood boil. It's amazing some of the things that some white southerners would say to me about black people. (Certainly not all whites, but many of them) I guess they thought they could be more candid with me because I was white, but suffice to say, racism is still very much alive and well in this country--including the North. And there are many businesses that would gladly revert to denying blacks entrance to their businesses if they could. It is completely plausible, which is amazing that so many people here on this forum would actually defend that practice.
And of course, why stop at businesses? Why not deny private schooling to blacks? Public Schooling? Churches? Universities? Neighborhoods?
And a lot of people here would likely defend that. Where would you stop? It's Repulsive. Absolutely despicable.
No what's repulsive and absolutely despicable is the driving force behind your ideology. You may wrap your positions in high minded pie in the sky rhetoric but in the end yours is the ideology of the slave driver.
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