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Old 09-07-2011, 03:29 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdubs3201 View Post
The way I learned about the gold standard and how it would function in comparison to the current fiat currency system is: I read books.

Now based on your posts it seems you are not one patient enough and demand instant gratification, so book reading may not be your thing, but if it is: "End the Fed" by Ron Paul is a good start, only about 200 pages. If you really want the nitty gritty: "The Creature From Jekyll Island" by G. Edward Griffin. A much longer read, but will explain to you everything about the current money system, how the federal reserve, and there's many chapters that refer to the gold standard. Great history lessons right there.

As for my dumbed down explanation:

First off, where you are wrong is that it is not Ron Paul's Gold Standard. Ron Paul simply believes the Free Market will determine what commodity is best to back the dollar. It could be a precious metal like gold as gold has been the popular choice for currency backing over the course of civilization, but I think it could be oil or some other energy resource as well. Ron Paul simply wants off of the fiat currency system that has no backing to move to a commodity based backing of the currency.

What this does is it prevents inflation of the currency. If you can't print more dollars than are currently available in the value of gold, then you can't inflate the money supply. To understand this, you need to understand how the current system works (again, read those books, I don't you don't like to hear it, but that technology that lets you learn something in a matter of seconds like they have in the movie "the Matrix" hasn't been invented yet.)

As of right now, private banks are in control of our money supply and they print and loan money that they create out of thin air. The largest entities that borrow this newly created money are the elite corporations of the world, other banks, and The United States Government. The problem with this, by satisfying the instant demands of these entities through loans that aren't always intended to be repaid and often aren't (look up deficit spending or "Keynesian Economic Theory"), you decrease the value of the dollar each time you increase the money supply. This instantly helps those who touch the money first and who loan out the money, and it affects others like you and I later.

How does inflation hurt us? It causes prices to increase of our daily goods and services that we rely upon. All the while wages are decreasing over the last 50 years in relation to inflation rates. So basically you are making less money every time the Fed prints a Billion dollars because your wages aren't increasing as fast, but the prices of things you buy are increasing much quicker.

There are many other factors to rising prices, particularly government "regulation" and bureaucracies, but inflation is called a "hidden tax" because you and I are paying for that newly printed money, we just pay it later through higher prices.

If you went to gold standard, you could not print more money than is available in gold reserves, thus holding the Fed (or whatever organization is in charge of money, US Treasury maybe) accountable for keeping the money supply in check. Right now there is nothing keeping the supply in check. Money is created daily via printing press and computer without justification and at the price of inflation.

If you don't believe this, check the price of gold's activity in the last 10 years. See what it compares to in 1979 (the last recession) when it was at it's peak. Here's a hint: Gold's highest point in the 1979 recession era was $800 an ounce.....today it's somewhere between $1750 and $1850. That's in 30 years, the value of the dollar has been decreased by more than half it's value. What cost you a dollar in 1979 costs you two today.

There's a reason this happens, few in power are benefiting from this at our expense. We are paying the harsh price to line the pockets of a few. The United States was intended to be a Republic based on democratic principles of election. Today it is a Monetary Empireas it serves one sole purpose. That is to expand it's empire through monetary purposes via debt leverage, inflation, and resource domination.

I hope this helps, I'm sure there's a couple errs in my explanation that I'm sure others will correct for me.

Honestly though, you want to be informed? You want to understand? Stop watching the news, read a book.

Not sure why you felt the need to be condescending about books... I like books. Iíve read about 40 this year.

I am also well versed in what inflation is and why that is bad etc... I even know a thing or two about the gold standard.... thus the reason, I ask what RPs version is. Because there is more than one way have a gold standard.

again, I pointed this out in an earlier post. I am going to get RPs book. I may read Creature, but honestly I believe there are some "stretches" there. I have not read the book, however, I have read about the book some...Trying to remain unbiased about it though.

Still my main questions revolve around

It seems RPs version of a gold standard allows gold to fluctuate on the open market. What prevents those same powerful and nebulous people out there (and I agree that they are out there harming you and me) from manipulating the gold market and thus the money?

What happens when some powerful nation like China decides to call our hand and demand our gold for their dollar reserves? do we just pay up? if so, where do we get more gold? Or do we even have actual gold reserves?
(yet another variation of the different kind of Gold Standards).

What happens when the economy expands faster than the value of gold? all the sudden, what happens when there arenít enough dollars to go around?

There are a LOT of moving parts to a gold standard. they all are just as important and the valid arguments AGAINST the current Fiat system.

I do appreciate the exchange with you. You are the first person to actually attempt to address the issue here on CD when I have asked in a meaningful way.

Again, I am NOT bashing or trying to discredit. I am trying to UNDERSTAND. And honestly I think for anyone who is supportive of a GS, these are questions they should be able to answer as a matter of course.

Personally I have always felt the best answer is a fiat system that is controlled by a set of very defined mathematical equations that determine the amount of dollars in circulation. Doing so eliminates the inflation issues and defends against the deflationary cycles historically seen with the GS.
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:56 PM
 
77 posts, read 48,999 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post

It seems RPs version of a gold standard allows gold to fluctuate on the open market. What prevents those same powerful and nebulous people out there (and I agree that they are out there harming you and me) from manipulating the gold market and thus the money?
Theres always going to be the risk of manipulation but its far harder to manipulate the value of gold than it is paper.
Quote:
What happens when some powerful nation like China decides to call our hand and demand our gold for their dollar reserves? do we just pay up? if so, where do we get more gold? Or do we even have actual gold reserves?
(yet another variation of the different kind of Gold Standards).
We nuke em.

Quote:
What happens when the economy expands faster than the value of gold? all the sudden, what happens when there arenít enough dollars to go around?
The dollar wold be worth more rather than devalued as it is now.

Quote:
There are a LOT of moving parts to a gold standard. they all are just as important and the valid arguments AGAINST the current Fiat system.
Partially true. The big difference is Gold is always worth its weight in gold. Paper money is worth its weight in paper.
Quote:
Personally I have always felt the best answer is a fiat system that is controlled by a set of very defined mathematical equations that determine the amount of dollars in circulation. Doing so eliminates the inflation issues and defends against the deflationary cycles historically seen with the GS.
As long as money can be printed on a whim we're going to have issues.
I agree with your idea but its far easier to manipulate mathematical equations than it is something tangible.


Its funny that Ron Paul is called a crackpot yet all the other politicians that jump on board destroying the country are some how sane.
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:05 PM
 
16,284 posts, read 9,125,151 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Says Who? View Post
Theres always going to be the risk of manipulation but its far harder to manipulate the value of gold than it is paper.
We nuke em.

The dollar wold be worth more rather than devalued as it is now.

Partially true. The big difference is Gold is always worth its weight in gold. Paper money is worth its weight in paper.
As long as money can be printed on a whim we're going to have issues.
I agree with your idea but its far easier to manipulate mathematical equations than it is something tangible.


Its funny that Ron Paul is called a crackpot yet all the other politicians that jump on board destroying the country are some how sane.

well that was funny but it isnt a serious answer to a serious question.

more tomorrow! thanks!
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Old 09-07-2011, 04:42 PM
 
Location: SC
9,038 posts, read 14,332,895 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdubs3201 View Post
The Ron Paul Solution by Brian Wilson

This pretty much sums it up in retard terms, so those of you who like to make statements about Ron Paul and what he stands for, or are even so unintelligent that you just repeat words like "wacky" or "unelectable" without any points to back your argument....maybe this article could put some perspective in your brain. I'm not saying you will agree with him 100%, but at least you'll realize the big picture.
Good analogy! I hope people "get it" now. I hope everyone watches the debates later tonight too.
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Old 09-08-2011, 07:52 AM
 
2,618 posts, read 5,468,324 times
Reputation: 2104
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
I am also well versed in what inflation is and why that is bad etc... I even know a thing or two about the gold standard.... thus the reason, I ask what RPs version is. Because there is more than one way have a gold standard.
Ok, but the main point you are confused about is that Ron Paul seeks to implement a specific version of the gold standard. This is incorrect and it's media fed bull**** that you're chewing on. You won't find an answer to this because there isn't one. Ron Paul doesn't have a plan.

See what people don't realize is that it's the government act of trying to fix things that is actually making things worse. Remove government intervention, regulation, and bureaucracy, and you will find that the free market. Ron Paul doesn't so much seek to try and fix anything, so much as he wants to undo the chains and restriction that has been put in place to rob us of our liberties.

Quote:
again, I pointed this out in an earlier post. I am going to get RPs book. I may read Creature, but honestly I believe there are some "stretches" there. I have not read the book, however, I have read about the book some...Trying to remain unbiased about it though.
Well based on your posts it would be hard to assume this. I don't get why you're asking such questions if you've read Creature, the book should explain it quite well to you or you could be able to arrive to the conclusions on your own.

Quote:
Still my main questions revolve around

It seems RPs version of a gold standard allows gold to fluctuate on the open market. What prevents those same powerful and nebulous people out there (and I agree that they are out there harming you and me) from manipulating the gold market and thus the money?
See above. As for preventing people from trying to harm us, there's no way to prevent people from trying to do that, there always will be those who will try. It's about not succeeding our liberties to them that we have slowly but surely done in the last 80 years.

Quote:
What happens when some powerful nation like China decides to call our hand and demand our gold for their dollar reserves? do we just pay up? if so, where do we get more gold? Or do we even have actual gold reserves?
(yet another variation of the different kind of Gold Standards).
This is what I call "trying to treat a symptom rather than cure that disease". You're absolutely right, the China situation puts us in a pickle, but that's because we've put ourselves in this situation (or those in power of the monetary system). I don't have an answer for you, I look beyond this problem at the big picture.

Quote:
What happens when the economy expands faster than the value of gold? all the sudden, what happens when there arenít enough dollars to go around?
Hasn't happened, and gold has proven to be replacement for currency in the past.

Quote:
There are a LOT of moving parts to a gold standard. they all are just as important and the valid arguments AGAINST the current Fiat system.
You're right, but I do know that the fiat system is wrong and isn't working. I don't think anyone has the ability to give you 100% perfect answers to this problem. Here's what I know: it's not working now, I want it to change. Most Americans are at a point now where the status quo is unacceptable to them and they want a true change. Even if it's not a perfect solution, they want to see something else.

Quote:
I do appreciate the exchange with you. You are the first person to actually attempt to address the issue here on CD when I have asked in a meaningful way.
I try.

Quote:
Again, I am NOT bashing or trying to discredit. I am trying to UNDERSTAND. And honestly I think for anyone who is supportive of a GS, these are questions they should be able to answer as a matter of course.
You just come across as someone who wants to be fed an answer at no work of your own. If you're looking for true knowledge and understanding, you have to seek it yourself, not rely on others to educate you.

Quote:
Personally I have always felt the best answer is a fiat system that is controlled by a set of very defined mathematical equations that determine the amount of dollars in circulation. Doing so eliminates the inflation issues and defends against the deflationary cycles historically seen with the GS.
It's the Fiat system that CREATES the inflationary and deflationary cycles. If you read creature, you'd know that The Fed was created with the reason as to prevent the booms/busts and create stability, in which since its inception there have been dozens of busts. Look at the situation now: 10 years of instability.

This is because you cannot control an economy. You have to let it be free by nature, a free market will show success for the country as a whole, there is no math that can predict or control. Surely you'd think that if they could control it to our benefit they would have by now. They haven't. They create booms/busts to their benefit and screw over the rest of the nation so they can further tread on our liberties and rights. When people are in a boom state, enjoying success, they're more lenient and willing to let governments impose upon their freedoms. Now that people are in a pickle and the government is in over it's head in terms of "fixing the economy", they're finally looking at their rights and their life with dissatisfaction and they want their rights back. People see more clearly now in terms of their liberties.

Asking the government to fix the economy is like asking a doctor to regrow a lost limb. IT CANNOT BE DONE.
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:34 PM
 
3,395 posts, read 3,357,890 times
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I have done my share of Ron Paul bashing, but I do think he did the best in the debate last night.

I do wish he had stepped aside and let his son run instead. When people say he is unelectable, I think they are saying that he comes off as a grumpy old man. His delivery needs a LOT of work. He talks about complex issues very fast. Do you know how difficult that is for your average American to follow? So they dismiss him as unelectable.

Also, the Iran thing bothers me less than what happened in the debate before this, when he was asked if he can push legislation through both houses of Congress. All he had was a blank stare.

You would think with all his years in the House, he would have built up a lot of goodwill. But I think he has the same "You people are retards" attitude that a lot of his followers display. He does treat other House members like they are idiots. That's not going to make you popular. Look at his remarks about Bill O'Reilly. Say what you want about O'Reilly, but that guy gets great ratings. Way to bite the hand that MIGHT have fed you. Not now, of course.

The fact is, he CAN'T drive that car in the other direction and make it all sparkly rainbows and unicorns unless he can WORK WITH CONGRESS. But from everything I have seen from him, it's his way or the highway. And maybe his way IS the right way, but if nobody in Washington is following you, it's pointless.
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:40 PM
 
2,618 posts, read 5,468,324 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Book Lover 21 View Post
I wish he had stepped aside and let his son run instead. When people say he is unelectable, I think they are saying that he comes off as a grumpy old man. His delivery needs a LOT of work. He talks about complex issues very fast. Do you know how difficult that is for your average American to follow? So they dismiss him as unelectable.
First off, Rand Paul is too new to politics be able to run a successful Presidential Campaign. He's not well known enough, hasn't shown a track record as he's only been in congress maybe 2 years?

As for Ron Paul not being "electable" or "grumpy old man" is something that I think would hold much more weight in previous presidential elections. In recent elections you've had almost identical candidates. They stand for the same things, they point fingers at each other, you don't know what they're REALLY going to do in office...so people who are uneducated and don't take time to do their own research vote based on stupid reasons like "party lines" or "home state" or "does he look confident and like the presidents we'd see in a hollywood movie?" Maybe they do this subconsciously, but before there was no price to pay for voting for the guy that lost because essentially both candidates were the same.

I think with the overall hatred/failure/blame on GW Bush, and the high expectation of "change" from current President Obama, people are waking up and realizing that there is no difference between parties, they're both wrong, they both put us further in debt and take away our liberties and both send us to numerous wars.

People are waking up, they're reading books, the internet allows them research, and they're deciding for themselves that the status quo is unacceptable.


Quote:
Also, the Iran thing bothers me less than what happened in the debate before this, when he was asked if he can push legislation through both houses of Congress. All he had was a blank stare.
I don't recall this part, but you have to understand the philosophy behind libertarianism and non-intervention foreign policy. Don't confuse this with isolationism because they're not the same, but this policy states one country has no business in controlling, dictating, overthrowing, or meddling in a sovereign nations government affairs...including the US. It's these acts of involvement in other countries governments and political processes that cause what is called "Blowback" which is sort of a return effect. Meaning: if you play with fire you will get burned. By trying to control these nations leaderships you are essentially becoming an enemy of their citizens, they don't like our military base in their backyard, they don't like our corporations coming over and paying them garbage wages, they don't like us ousting their leaders and propping up "democratic US friendly" leaders in their place. This is why the middle eastern nations and many other nations are showing hostility toward the US. It's not because they hate our freedom or way of life; they hate our foreign policy and they don't like getting bombs dropped on their head.

Quote:
You would think with all his years in the House, he would have built up a lot of goodwill. But I think he has the same "You people are retards" attitude that a lot of his followers display. He does treat other House members like they are idiots. That's not going to make you popular. Look at his remarks about Bill O'Reilly. Say what you want about O'Reilly, but that guy gets great ratings. Way to bite the hand that MIGHT have fed you. Not now, of course.
I sort of felt the same way in 2008....but then I did research and I realize that RON PAUL HAS BEEN RIGHT ABOUT EVERYTHING. He treats other house members like idiots because they are, book lover. Ron Paul knows more about the constitution and economics than every single GOP candidate combined. He has written numerous books on the subjects. I suggest you look into them. You'll read his books from 2008 and earlier and realize that everything he talked about that "could happen" actually HAS happened.

Guys like Bill O'Reilly are owned by a larger force known as a corporation or media conglomerate. Bill is ridiculous because that's what makes people watch the show, so you see the commercials, so that the company makes money. Bill O'Reilly doesn't deserve any respect from any politician except as a successful media clown.

Quote:
The fact is, he CAN'T drive that car in the other direction and make it all sparkly rainbows and unicorns unless he can WORK WITH CONGRESS. But from everything I have seen from him, it's his way or the highway. And maybe his way IS the right way, but if nobody in Washington is following you, it's pointless.
Ron Paul isn't going to change the nation overnight, but I see Dr. Pauls influence as a huge success already and he hasn't even won the presidency yet.

You have a guy who has stated he won't use unnecessary executive power to continue an illegal foreign policy and push through acts. Examples: None of the wars we are involved in today were declared by congress. The president ordered all of them, therefore HE DOESNT HAVE TO WORK WITH CONGRESS TO BRING BACK THE TROOPS AND END THE WARS.

Also, look at the Patriot Act, possibly the single most freedom imposing and unconstitutional bill passed in recent history....passed with executive power, Bush pushed that through, it wasn't decided upon by congress.

Having a president such as Ron Paul would set an example. If politicians saw a man like Dr. Paul have success they will take on his ideals and change their policies and positions. Politicians are career-minded people. They are in it to win and further their personal career. Right now the path to success lies within corporations and special interest groups. But if Ron Paul can win a presidency with a strong grassroots campaign and without any corporation contributions, other politicians in the future will adopt his philosophy and work for the people once again.

Look at the Tea Party movement. Who do you think founded the Tea Party? Dr. Ron Paul. These ideas of cutting spending and shrinking government weren't nearly as popular in 2008 as they are today. This is the power of Ron Paul's influence. Don't think of him as driving us 100 miles in the opposite direction. Think of it as him stopping the car that headed toward a cliff, filling it up with a gasoline made of a sound money system, turning it around, and getting us going in the right direction. His influence will train other drivers in the future to continue on his path.

This election is so very important because there's no one else like Ron Paul right now. If he doesn't win and we continue the status quo, we surely are on a path to destroy our nation from within. I don't see another candidate or politician with the same track record of honesty, diligence to protect the constitution, or nearly as educated in economics to live up to what he can accomplish for setting us on the right path. I honestly believe that if things don't change soon, things will have to hit rock bottom before they can get better. I'm preparing for the worst.

Last edited by cdubs3201; 09-08-2011 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:37 PM
 
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Hey, don't get me wrong. I DO think he has the right message. I just think he is alienating all the wrong people along the way.
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:42 PM
 
1,059 posts, read 1,081,934 times
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a gold standard/non fiat backed currency would be ideal however not at this current time. With the massive debt overhang that US households have, debtors would be crushed under a shift to one. As a saver, it matters not for me, but for the general US at this moment in time, the majority of households would be worse off.
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:51 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
20,019 posts, read 15,739,151 times
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Ferd,

Why are people forced by law to accept green paper things to forgive debt? Why can't I demand that a debt be repaid with 1 oz of gold and nothing else, in a contract? Because the GOVERNMENT has to force me to accept these green paper things.
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