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Old 09-13-2011, 12:28 PM
 
Location: PA
5,560 posts, read 4,979,570 times
Reputation: 1945

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Reagan is dead..
Thomas Jefferson is dead.
Ron Paul is alive... vote on princple to tell you the truth no matter how bad you dont want to hear it.
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Old 09-13-2011, 12:37 PM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,434,902 times
Reputation: 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
It is possible that we do. Mine happens to be in touch with reality. You can prove that I'm wrong by providing an example of such society that showcases your definition but not mine. I will look forward to it.
What reality is that? Care to explain?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Can't help but tell you (and yet again) that you can't provide an example of something that doesn't exist. I can tell you that the "imperfect" society we live in today happens to be for the very same reasons you think your ideas can counter and survive.
You can't provide an example of how individual liberty as a concept will fail? I think you have no idea what you are talking about and are philosophical meandering to attempt to appear as if you have some point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
Can't be, any more than TELLING you that there is no such thing as the ideal world. Never has been, never will be.
Never stated there was. If you thought I was making that claim, then you need to work on your critical reading skills.
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:01 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,777 posts, read 24,916,390 times
Reputation: 12178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
You can't provide an example of how individual liberty as a concept will fail?
I did. Did you care to look around you and analyze why things are the way they are? And why things aren't because they couldn't be (see below).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
Never stated there was. If you thought I was making that claim, then you need to work on your critical reading skills.
Then you shouldn't have argued against my post.
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:22 PM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,434,902 times
Reputation: 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
I did. Did you care to look around you and analyze why things are the way they are? And why things aren't because they couldn't be (see below).

Then you shouldn't have argued against my post.
Things are the way they are because some do not respect individual liberty. That however does not invalidate the position of individual liberty. Those who do not respect it are treated accordingly, so your attempt to claim that it does not exist is false.

You were trying to force my position into a specific set of conditions and expectations so that you could proclaim it non-existent. Individual liberty exists all throughout society as there are those that respect others individual liberty and expect to have theirs respected and it is the key to which this nation was founded.

Individual liberty is a trouble for you, as it is for most liberals. They dislike the idea that someone can live as they choose, speak as they choose, and make decisions as they choose. This infuriates liberals as they wish to force conformity on the masses to appeal to their ideal of some collective.

You asked for an example of individual liberty, you are discussing with one. I respect each and every individuals liberty and make a point to not infringe on it throughout my life. I demand nothing from another and only object to another when they attempt to infringe on my liberty.

So your claim is false. Individual liberty does not require a collective to function, it exists in each and every individual to which upholds it. It requires nothing from another and demands no service or fee for it to exist.
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:46 PM
 
50,756 posts, read 26,770,684 times
Reputation: 15906
Quote:
Originally Posted by quality guy View Post
I think you could be right about her NOW!
"Now" is all that matters.
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:47 PM
 
50,756 posts, read 26,770,684 times
Reputation: 15906
Quote:
Originally Posted by quality guy View Post
Ron Reagan Jr. and Patty Reagan....are as far apart from what Ronald Reagan stood for...as you can get!
And that's a bad thing?

What exactly did he stand for anyway? I can't quite figure it out. He raised taxes, gave amnesty, ran up debt. Is that the stuff you mean?
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Old 09-13-2011, 01:48 PM
 
50,756 posts, read 26,770,684 times
Reputation: 15906
Quote:
Originally Posted by LibertyandJusticeforAll View Post
Reagan is dead..
Thomas Jefferson is dead.
Ron Paul is alive... vote on princple to tell you the truth no matter how bad you dont want to hear it.
Fine....tell him to leave the Republican Party first.
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Old 09-13-2011, 02:00 PM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
72,064 posts, read 83,719,346 times
Reputation: 41838
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
A mess, how?

Because he disagrees with you?

A mess? So....you've led a perfect life, huh?
Not wanting to go to private boarding school: screwing up every chance he got, not wanting to live in Sac but again didn't want the private school life either. That is for starters. He decided after a very short time in college he would become a ballet dancer, but apparently he wasn't very good. He has tried the talk show sceen, being a commentator for dog shows, etc. Never has he been a mild success at any of his attempts. He totally disagreed with his parents every chance he got. Would you like me to tell you more?

Have I had a perfect life? Of course not, no one has, but was I a screw up or embarrassment to my family? Never as far as I know, nor have my kids been an embarrassment to their father and me. But my life has nothing to do witht he subject with Patti or Ron Jr.

Nita
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Old 09-13-2011, 02:35 PM
 
15,489 posts, read 7,900,314 times
Reputation: 8024
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nomander View Post
No, I am talking about a concept to which one can not be liberal (modern liberal) and respect. Individual liberty negates many positions of liberal beliefs. Social programs, most taxation, various regulations (both business and individual), dictations of property rights, etc... do not respect individual liberty. As I said, show me a liberal that respects individual liberty, and I will show you they are not a liberal. Do conservatives respect individual liberty? Some do, many do not, and are simply liberals wearing a conservative badge. They desire all that liberals do, they just want it their way, for their benefit.
That right there (the bolded section) is why individual liberty cannot exist. Everyone wants everything their own way, even those that agree on many positions or actions will have something that they disagree upon. No one can get everything they want and no government or political party or philosophy has some sort of magical way to attain it. For society to exist there has to be compromise and laws and some sort of order that will go against someone's individual liberty; therefore it cannot exist.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nmnita View Post
Not wanting to go to private boarding school: screwing up every chance he got, not wanting to live in Sac but again didn't want the private school life either. That is for starters. He decided after a very short time in college he would become a ballet dancer, but apparently he wasn't very good. He has tried the talk show sceen, being a commentator for dog shows, etc. Never has he been a mild success at any of his attempts. He totally disagreed with his parents every chance he got. Would you like me to tell you more?

All that sounds quite normal for teenagers and early adulthood IMO. Also the definition of "sucess" is different for everyone, sucess in what? Not really asking you though but just to point out making a lot of money or being president are not ideals that everyone finds successful. And for what it's worth who wants to go to private boarding school? Some kids like being able to see their parents and family every day.
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Old 09-13-2011, 02:48 PM
 
13,072 posts, read 11,434,902 times
Reputation: 2608
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
That right there (the bolded section) is why individual liberty cannot exist. Everyone wants everything their own way, even those that agree on many positions or actions will have something that they disagree upon. No one can get everything they want and no government or political party or philosophy has some sort of magical way to attain it. For society to exist there has to be compromise and laws and some sort of order that will go against someone's individual liberty; therefore it cannot exist.
I disagree. This only becomes a problem when people begin espousing ideas of "community" and "collective" to which they use such claims as just principals for infringing on liberties. As long as someone is not infringing on another, they are free to do as they like. Also, there is nothing stopping those individuals from agreeing to work together to achieve various goals, but an individual can not be forced to do as such. We are a nation of people united... but through common purpose, through the protection and achievement of individual liberty. It is the basis of this nations principals. We do not serve the government or the mob that dictates, we choose to offer at our own discretion because such benefits us individually as well as the whole, but make no mistake, we are not slaves to a cause, we are free to choose.

What compromise do you speak of? Give some examples of what liberties that need to be infringed on for society to exist? Give some examples of laws that infringe on liberties, yet are required for a functional society.

The argument you are making is one used to justify systems like socialism, communism, etc... because they use the claim that a free society can not function without the dictation of some collective infringement. This is false.
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