Romney campaign distributing fake "grassroots" signs at a church rally :-P (date)

[tmsterp]

Originally Posted by HeyJude514

In a word, yes; it's kind of the definition of grassroots support--as in, not manufactured or orchestrated by traditional power structures.

Not every supporter will make their own sign, of course, but a good way to gauge the level of enthusiasm that a candidate generates is by the effort his supporters willingly expend to show their support. What other reason do you think the Romney campaign would have to go to the trouble of making signs that appear to be homemade if they weren't trying to make it look like it was a grassroots effort where none existed?

The amount of time they're willing to spend? Those signs take like 5 minutes to write up. Anybody can take a marker and write "Go Mitt!" on a poster board. It probably takes longer to go online, go to the candidate's site, add a rally sign to your online shopping cart, enter your credit card information, etc. I'd say I spent more time, that actually took a good ten minutes. And I'm sorry if people going to rallies/polling places of their own volition (it's not like "traditional power structures" are kidnapping them and bringing them there) isn't grassroots enough for some people.

[HeyJude514]

Originally Posted by tmsterp

The amount of time they're willing to spend? Those signs take like 5 minutes to write up. Anybody can take a marker and write "Go Mitt!" on a poster board. It probably takes longer to go online, go to the candidate's site, add a rally sign to your online shopping cart, enter your credit card information, etc. I'd say I spent more time, that actually took a good ten minutes. And I'm sorry if people going to rallies/polling places of their own volition (it's not like "traditional power structures" are kidnapping them and bringing them there) isn't grassroots enough for some people.

Very good. You know how to buy a generic sign online. It takes no effort whatsoever, which is exactly the point. If you are enthusiastic about your candidate or cause you will plan what you want to say, physically go to a store to buy materials, and then spend an hour or so to create the sign. I know because I have made many of them in my time. It takes much more than the five minutes you spent making a few mouse clicks online, but people won't bother unless they really care about the cause they are making the sign for. That is the definition of grassroots support.

And Romney's people are acutely aware of that. Why else would they create their own signs to make it look like someone spent time creating them? What would be the purpose, if not to give the perception that a few people in the crowd cared enough to put forth the effort? They know it, even if it's beyond your ability to understand.

[moving_pains]

Originally Posted by tmsterp

The amount of time they're willing to spend? Those signs take like 5 minutes to write up. Anybody can take a marker and write "Go Mitt!" on a poster board. It probably takes longer to go online, go to the candidate's site, add a rally sign to your online shopping cart, enter your credit card information, etc. I'd say I spent more time, that actually took a good ten minutes. And I'm sorry if people going to rallies/polling places of their own volition (it's not like "traditional power structures" are kidnapping them and bringing them there) isn't grassroots enough for some people.

HeyJude514 explained it very well. The very fact that you don't "get" it, is proof that you don't any idea as to what grassroots support even means.

A lot of votes != grassroots support.

Grassroots support is quality, not quantity.

A candidate whom the media and the Establishment projects to be the "frontrunner" will naturally get a lot of votes. It's human psychology to back the "winning" horse. If you are undecided, doesn't have the attitude or aptitude to do in-depth research into a candidate and his voting record, but somehow "know" that Obama should be defeated as if the idea has been wired to your brain, at the polling booth, you pick the candidate whose name has been flashed before your eyes the most. This is not grassroots support.

When was the last time a Romney supporter stood in the pouring rain or freezing snow and waved a sign for Romney?

When was the last time a Romney supporter filled their yard with a thousand Romney signs?

When was the last time a Romney supporter painted his car or his garage door over with Romney's face and messages?

When was the last time a Romney supporter became an entrepreneur and started selling Romney candy bars, Romney action figures or Romney gold coins?

When was the last time a Romney supporter, after being inspired by Romney, started studying economics, history, civics and the Constitution?

When was the last time a Romney supporter, after being inspired by Romney, decided to run for office himself?

Right. NEVER. And that is your answer.

[tmsterp]

Originally Posted by moving_pains

HeyJude514 explained it very well. The very fact that you don't "get" it, is proof that you don't any idea as to what grassroots support even means.

A lot of votes != grassroots support.

Grassroots support is quality, not quantity.

A candidate whom the media and the Establishment projects to be the "frontrunner" will naturally get a lot of votes. It's human psychology to back the "winning" horse. If you are undecided, doesn't have the attitude or aptitude to do in-depth research into a candidate and his voting record, but somehow "know" that Obama should be defeated as if the idea has been wired to your brain, at the polling booth, you pick the candidate whose name has been flashed before your eyes the most. This is not grassroots support.

When was the last time a Romney supporter stood in the pouring rain or freezing snow and waved a sign for Romney?

When was the last time a Romney supporter filled their yard with a thousand Romney signs?

When was the last time a Romney supporter painted his car or his garage door over with Romney's face and messages?

When was the last time a Romney supporter became an entrepreneur and started selling Romney candy bars, Romney action figures or Romney gold coins?

When was the last time a Romney supporter, after being inspired by Romney, started studying economics, history, civics and the Constitution?

When was the last time a Romney supporter, after being inspired by Romney, decided to run for office himself?

Right. NEVER. And that is your answer.

I find Mitt Romney very inspirational. I'm just not an over the top person. I phone bank for Romney. So do LOTS of other people - I work with them. That takes more time, and accomplishes more for our candidate, than making a sign. I have one Romney sticker on my car. I don't think that just because one chooses not to display their support of a candidate in (in my opinion) a tacky manner does not mean we are any less grassroots. Every individual person is a grassroots supporter. I'm sorry that you feel that for us to be "grassroots people" we have to make signs on our own or fill our yard (in my case I live in an apartment) with candidate's signs. Otherwise we're apparently just "establishment people." I come from a working class background, I'm the first in my family to go to college. I'm not part of the establishment. Just because I happen to support a candidate you don't like doesn't make me less of a grassroots person. EVERY person is a grassroots person. The candidate with the most people making the conscious decision to support a candidate of their own volition is the candidate with the most grassroots support. In the GOP, that candidate is Mitt Romney.

You may think he's buying votes, but I haven't received a dime from him. Nor has anyone else I know. We CHOOSE to support him, and we ARE the grassroots, just like everyone else, whether Paul/Obama/Santorum supporters like it or not

[HeyJude514]

Originally Posted by tmsterp

I find Mitt Romney very inspirational. I'm just not an over the top person. I phone bank for Romney. So do LOTS of other people - I work with them. That takes more time, and accomplishes more for our candidate, than making a sign.

That's fine, you are a real Romney supporter--that's obvious by the way you have put your time in for his campaign. Good for you. But it really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which is the fact that the Romney campaign is attempting to make it look like people at this rally are so enthusiastic about his candidacy that they spent time and effort to make homemade signs.

[moving_pains]

Originally Posted by tmsterp

I find Mitt Romney very inspirational. I'm just not an over the top person. I phone bank for Romney. So do LOTS of other people - I work with them. That takes more time, and accomplishes more for our candidate, than making a sign. I have one Romney sticker on my car. I don't think that just because one chooses not to display their support of a candidate in (in my opinion) a tacky manner does not mean we are any less grassroots. Every individual person is a grassroots supporter. I'm sorry that you feel that for us to be "grassroots people" we have to make signs on our own or fill our yard (in my case I live in an apartment) with candidate's signs. Otherwise we're apparently just "establishment people." I come from a working class background, I'm the first in my family to go to college. I'm not part of the establishment. Just because I happen to support a candidate you don't like doesn't make me less of a grassroots person. EVERY person is a grassroots person. The candidate with the most people making the conscious decision to support a candidate of their own volition is the candidate with the most grassroots support. In the GOP, that candidate is Mitt Romney.

You may think he's buying votes, but I haven't received a dime from him. Nor has anyone else I know. We CHOOSE to support him, and we ARE the grassroots, just like everyone else, whether Paul/Obama/Santorum supporters like it or not

I will give it to you that you are an outlier, but please don't claim that not every Romney voter is not zombie-walking to the polling booth.

Romney's support is:

Mormons (every Mormon alive will vote for Romney, no questions asked)
Neocons (bomb the hell out of Iran, Syria or whatever else we can in that area)
Rich folks (tax cuts, yay!)
People bought off by the rich folks (money, yay!)
RINOs (they know Romney = White Obama)
Folks who think he can "beat" Obama (thank you MSM)
Military industrial complex (more wars, yay!)
Amnesiacs (they don't remember Romney's liberal record)
+ a lot of other really dumb people

Not even the political pundits constantly pumping Romney and Santorum on TV would claim that they have "grassroots supporters" or "passionate supporters". I doubt even his own family is excited about Romney.

Plus, Romney is faking that the has grassroots support. If you have to fake it, it means you don't have it, but badly wants it.

[tmsterp]

Originally Posted by HeyJude514

That's fine, you are a real Romney supporter--that's obvious by the way you have put your time in for his campaign. Good for you. But it really has nothing to do with the topic of this thread, which is the fact that the Romney campaign is attempting to make it look like people at this rally are so enthusiastic that they spent time and effort to make homemade signs.

Well I guess I will agree to disagree on what we mean by grassroots. I can't deny that Romney sees a need to make those signs. But I think if you're spending a few hours at a Romney rally, I wouldn't say you're much less enthusiastic than someone who does that and happens to make a sign beforehand. The difference in commitment to the candidate seems somewhat negligible at that point. Just my opinion. I will never claim that EVERY Romney voter is thrilled about voting for him, but I will not agree that I'm an outlier as moving_pains suggests.

Originally Posted by moving_pains

I will give it to you that you are an outlier, but please don't claim that not every Romney voter is not zombie-walking to the polling booth.

Romney's support is:

Mormons (every Mormon alive will vote for Romney, no questions asked) Neocons (bomb the hell out of Iran, Syria or whatever else we can in that area)
Rich folks (tax cuts, yay!)
People bought off by the rich folks (money, yay!)
RINOs (they know Romney = White Obama)
Folks who think he can "beat" Obama (thank you MSM)
Military industrial complex (more wars, yay!)
Amnesiacs (they don't remember Romney's liberal record)
+ a lot of other really dumb people

Not even the political pundits constantly pumping Romney and Santorum on TV would claim that they have "grassroots supporters" or "passionate supporters". I doubt even his own family is excited about Romney.

You seem pretty skeptical of the MSM, and rightfully so. They're ones feeding this image that no one likes Romney or is passionate about him. I have met lots of strong Romney supporters (many of them non-Mormon). Many Mormons I know very passionately support Romney and view him as an even greater source of inspiration than I do. What difference does it make why they support him? The reason many people become passionate supporters is because they can relate to a candidate. Most of them are pretty Conservative anyway so it's not like they only support him because he's Mormon, so don't discount them just because their religious views help them relate to Romney. (I also have a Mormon friend who is a die-hard Paul supporter though).

As for tax cuts for the rich, if that were the case, those people should want to get behind Paul who seems to want to eliminate the income tax altogether. Next

You can criticize Romney's supporters and label us in whatever derogatory manner you want, but your labels don't change how passionate or not passionate any of us are.

Yes some are zombie-voters. That's the case with any electable candidate. The fact is most Americans don't care about politics. If Paul somehow got the GOP nod, he too would need lots of zombie-voters if he were to stand any chance against Obama.

But for any candidate to succeed, it takes strong grassroots support

[moving_pains]

Let me try this again.

Why did Romney's campaign make signs which look like they were made by supporters by their own hands, and pass it around to the people standing behind Romney?

[tmsterp]

Originally Posted by moving_pains

Let me try this again.

Why did Romney's campaign make signs which look like they were made by supporters by their own hands, and pass it around to the people standing behind Romney?

You can ask that over and over, but it doesn't prove anything. Why does he hand out regular rally signs as well? Is that because he wants to prove he has establishment support? I doubt it. Flawed logic

[nmnita]

Originally Posted by moving_pains

The point of the matter is that Romney makes it appear that he has grassroots support, when he doesn't. Grassroots means actual passionate people who make signs in their garages and kitchen islands and bring them to the rallies to show the support for their candidate. Grassroots signs make it appear that actual people support the candidacy, and not paid-by-the-hour workers who wave factory-made signs made at Bain Robotics (which also manufactured Romney's brain).

[When I said Romney made them himself, that was sarcasm. You know, like implying that he can't even get anyone in his campaign to make the signs? Sad that I had to explain it.]

your argument does not hold water. It doesn't make any difference how the signs were made or who made them..