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Old 03-24-2012, 02:28 AM
 
8,487 posts, read 5,887,820 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
His mention of sausage making is true enough. Most people would be squeamish if they were to idly view the process. But it's a vital and necessary part of our system, and a caucus done well is roots democracy in it's most pure form.
All it needs is people who are willing to put their hands into the guts of our system and start mixing it up. It's not that hard to do after you accustom yourself to the matter at hand and go to it. It's always tastier when you do it well in the end, win or lose.
Yeah, but people should view it. Just like war. It shouldn't be dressed up or "hidden". People should know what the process really is. They have a right to that.
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Old 03-24-2012, 07:26 AM
 
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Well looks like a new caucus is going to be held.
State GOP: New St. Charles Caucus will be Fair, Transparent - O'Fallon, MO Patch
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:01 AM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,928,691 times
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i wrote up a short essay about the ordeal when i found a bunch of sources that shed even more light on dokes' caucus rigging attempts:

Quote:
St. Charles Missouri Caucus Rigging

Some of you roll your eyes whenever someone brings up the notion of rigged caucuses and primaries and dishonest ballot counts in American politics, especially when the one crying foul is a Ron Paul supporter. You don't think election fraud happens in America right now, and that it is affecting not just Ron Paul, but other candidates too? Think again.

And this one is just one of the times that it was so blatant that we found out about it––blatant because those responsible for the rigged caucus are not even trying to hide it, thinking instead that it was their duty to rig it in order to protect Americans from ourselves. How many times do we not find out about it because the culprits did not want to be found out and there wasn't enough video evidence to support the few "obviously paranoid lunatics" claiming that things were not done properly or honestly?

Summary

Eugene Dokes (Santorum supporter in charge of the St. Charles Missouri caucus, the largest caucus in the state, with estimates ranging between 1,000 to 2,500 attendees––meaning it holds a lot of leverage) managed to break multiple rules and strip voting privileges from hundreds of people in his attempt to control which presidential candidates––mainly his own choice, Santorum––got the majority of his county caucus' delegates, on March 17th.

Extended Account

Keep in mind that Dokes and his associates do not deny any of this, because they think that they were acting in the best interest of Americans by limiting which Americans can participate in a caucus and which ones cannot; further, even if they were to deny it, there are video recordings, audio recordings, emails, and voice mail recordings to back almost all of it, and enough eye witnesses to attest to the rest that I am well convinced.
▪ Dokes required a straw poll upon entrance to the caucus, breaking the rules of his own state GOP committee, so that he could personally see the numbers of supporters for each candidate. This added to the already late start of the meeting, since for some reason Dokes and the other officials had decided to congregate hundreds and hundreds of caucus attendees in the same gymnasium.
▪ Dokes tightly controlled the counting of the straw poll results, not allowing Ron Paul supporters to participate or even monitor the count, and then hid the results (this is contested, says Jon Bennett, one of Dokes' committee members, who says that the Ron Paul supporters must not have known that the ballots were being counted––even though it was in the same room, and Dokes was not allowing anything else to happen until it was finished––and that it is therefore their own fault).
▪ Dokes refused to start the caucus until all cameras and recording devices were put away, again breaking rules set specifically for these meetings (suspicious in and of itself, but especially since Dokes then proceeded to knowingly circumvent other rules in place whose whole purpose is to insure that the public's votes count). Regardless of political affiliation, nearly everyone booed this decision (understandable, especially after the similar Georgia debacle); Dokes refused to budge. Presumably, had Dokes actually formed a rules committee beforehand in his months of plotting, they could have legalized the ban on recordings, but no such committee was ever formed.
▪ When others made motions (by the GOP's own rules, mind you) to allow recording for the sake of transparency, Dokes refused to recognize anyone else and let them speak.
▪ Then, when people resisted the unlawful order to put cameras away, Dokes had the police called, and had them enforce his policy by threat of arrest; the police responded with large numbers of officers (over 30 by some estimates) from multiple precincts and even had a helicopter circling above the school. Attendees still demanded that the ban on recording be voted upon, and Dokes finally agreed, so long as recordings were put away for the vote itself.
▪ When all obvious recording had stopped (of course some people defiantly recorded in secret––why Dokes didn't think of this possibility is beyond me), Dokes ignored his promise to put it to vote and instead proceeded with the caucus elections, taking it upon himself to appoint his ally and fellow Santorum supporter, Matt Ehlen, to the chair position, and other GOP allies to other county positions––WITHOUT ALLOWING A VOTE, AND WITHOUT ALLOWING THE NOMINATION OF OTHER CANDIDATES (some sources say that he later did allow a vote, after his first failed attempt at ramrodding them in, but would still allow no more nominations, and with only one nominee, a vote would be merely an empty formality). Again, the crowd went wild, and Dokes' further naming of appointees could hardly be heard with supporters of all candidates, including many of Santorum's supporters, insisting that nominations take place as stated in the rules.
▪ When it became apparent to Dokes that he was not going to be able to control the vehement crowd at this point, and that they were not accepting his appointed officials, he adjourned the entire caucus without the two-thirds vote required to adjourn, rules established by the same GOP procedures that he had been breaking throughout the whole meeting.
▪ County caucus rules state that the meeting must be held only on the grounds advertised for the event two weeks prior, which was at the high school. So the disenfranchised crowd assembled peacefully outside of the building, following to the letter the very state GOP caucus rules that Dokes himself had dismissed. But then Dokes and the GOP committee members had police arrest Brent Stafford, the man that by popular vote (as opposed to illegal committee appointment) was acting as chair, and one other man that presumably had not put his camera away. When Stafford asked what charges were being brought against him, the police said "we'll tell you later." Stafford was later informed that the arrest was for trespassing, despite the fact that he was on public property, that there were still hundreds of other attendees with him, that they were legally reconvening the very meeting to which they had been invited onto this property in the first place, and lastly, despite the fact that if the police did kick the voters off of school property, they could not hold an official caucus at all, because GOP rules prevented alternate locations in the case of an emergency.
▪ A few days later, Dokes forwarded a letter drafted by Santorum's campaign personnel, which was written to look like Dokes and his associates had created it, pressuring Missouri GOP officials to not allow a new caucus to convene, and to give delegates to whichever candidate happened to win the nonbinding primary weeks earlier (Can you guess who? That's right, it was Santorum; now you know why they wanted people to think Dokes had created it), or, if that wasn't acceptable, to split delegates among the parties as represented by his earlier illegal straw poll.
▪ Dokes waited for a while to tell his associates who wrote the letter, but finally told them specifically that the letter had come straight from Santorum's campaign personnel. However, when the public demanded to know who wrote the letter, he insisted that it was written simply by Santorum supporters, hiding the fact that it had come from Santorum's own campaign team.
Dokes' Excuses

Here are some of the justifications that Dokes, Matt Ehlen, Bryan Spencer, and other committee supporters have used in defense of Dokes' rigged caucus:
▪ Dokes' subcommittee chairman, Bryan Spencer, admits on candid camera that their committee had been planning this entire scheme for months, because of worries that "Ron Paul [would] have tooken over––taken over the meeting." This is a specific reference to the fact that many Ron Paul and Mitt Romney supporters in the area had previously allied and decided to vote as a bloc on issues in which they shared ideals. Spencer continues, saying that it wouldn't be fair to the county citizens if 1% of the county population made up the majority of the vote. In plain English, what this means is that it wouldn't be fair to all of the St. Charles citizens that decided not to attend the caucus, because hundreds of Ron Paul and allied Mitt Romney supporters were definitely going to attend the caucus; according to Dokes, the majority should not get the majority vote. Spencer says that Dokes was "not going to allow Ron Paul to shut out the votes of three other candidates," and that this justifies his rigging of that morning's caucus, despite the fact that Dokes as the chair––the temporary chair at that, until a real chair is nominated and elected––has no authority to predetermine which party gets to vote and which one doesn't.
▪ Spencer says in the same candid video recording that he personally didn't want any media recordings of the meeting because they didn't "want people to see what actually goes into the caucus." They didn't want the rest of the nation to see what was going to happen that day.
▪ Dokes told the Associated Press that the meeting had been canceled prematurely by order of the police, because of safety issues, and that indeed he had felt threatened with physical violence on multiple occasions––despite the dozens of youtube videos shot by disobedient caucus-goers that fail to show a single threat to Dokes or his fellow officials.
▪ When questioned by the press as to the reason why the caucus failed and chaos ensued, Dokes said, "People attend the meetings with an agenda. When that happens, it's really hard to accept the authority of the room," insinuating that the Ron Paul and possibly Mitt Romney supporters were the reason that the caucus failed.
▪ Dokes, while sending his fellow committee members the letter drafted by Santorum's campaign team, told them that he agrees with the letter, that there should not be another caucus. After the letter was leaked, he recanted and told the press that he thinks another caucus should be held.
▪ Dokes and the Santorum campaign team claim in the letter that delegates should be given to the primary winner (Santorum), because to do otherwise and reconvene the caucus would inappropriately "reward the disruptive forces for their misbehavior," meaning the Paul and Romney supporters.
The Media

Mainstream media sources so far fail to mention much of the disastrous caucus, and when they have, they so far have been consistent in blaming it on the Ron Paul supporters, not giving any details about the plethora of rules violations and obvious rigging done by members of the county GOP committee.
▪ The New York Times had a reporter embedded throughout the entire event, witnessing all of it, but the only criticism of Dokes' management of the caucus that this reporter had was to quote Paul and Romney supporters in saying that "organizers broke procedural rules and that Mr. Dokes was “railroading the caucus” by closing nominations for the chair too quickly." The reporter then proceeds to quote many Santorum and other attendees that complain about the Ron Paul supporters, then quotes Dokes in insisting that he did everything by the books and leaves it at that, insinuating that it was the fault of the Romney, and specifically the Paul supporters that caused the caucus to fail.
If more mainstream media channels pick up this story, either fairly or unfairly, I will add them to the list.

Unfortunately for the mainstream media, there are videos and audio clips, and straightforward admissions to boot, enough evidence proving all of this to be true that they can't very well scoff about Ron Paul conspiracy theorists this time.

you want my sources?

Reality Check's Ben Swann investigates facts
Video Best Summary of 'St. Patrick's Day Massacre' | Bob McCarty Writes

More Perspectives of the Event
St. Charles County Caucus Part 2: Video-Recording Ban, Straw Poll, Arrests - St. Charles, MO Patch
Largest MO Caucus Adjourns WITHOUT Conducting Business

Bryan Spencer Tries to Justify Dokes' Caucus Rigging

Bryan Spencer Speaks about Rigging St. Charles Caucus - YouTube

Letter Identified as Coming from Santorum's Team Prompts Calls for Federal Investigation
St. Charles County GOP Chair Says Caucus Letter 'Actually Drafted by Santorum's Campaign Team' | Bob McCarty Writes
Santorum campaign caught trying to foil county convention re-do - Denver Conspiracy | Examiner.com

Santorum campaign drafted letter for Dokes to send to Missouri Republican party leaders - YouTube

Dokes Claims Letter was Written by Santorum Supporter
Source, Phone Message Revealed in St. Charles County Republican Central Committee Scandal | Bob McCarty Writes

On the radio, Brandy Pedersen (Dokes' fellow committee member) reveals Dokes' dishonesty
Media Coverage of GOP Caucus Fallout Widens | Bob McCarty Writes

New caucus set for April 10th
State GOP: New St. Charles Caucus will be Fair, Transparent - O'Fallon, MO Patch

New York Times Embedded Reporter
Disruption Closes a Missouri Caucus Before Vote - NYTimes.com

But guess what, the St. Charles caucus is not the first one to face allegations of fraud and the rigging of elections. And Ron Paul supporters are not the only ones having their votes illegally dismissed.

Maine

Ron Paul 100% proof of Maine Election fraud! Ben Swann Reality Check WXIX FOX 2/15/12 - YouTube

Georgia

Reality Check: Delegate slates illegally selected in Georgia? - YouTube

Georgia––Extended, From the PoV of the Attendees
Corruption in Georgia « Doug Wead The Blog

Ohio

Reality Check: Why vote? Dirty Dealings in An Ohio GOP Race - YouTube
EDIT: and for the record, they weren't just screwing over specifically ron paul supporters, but romney supporters as well, and even santorum and other supporters that did not like how the caucus was handled.
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Old 03-25-2012, 10:30 AM
 
8,487 posts, read 5,887,820 times
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I am still trying to figure out how the police got away with arresting people. I mean why would they do that? Showing up is one thing. That is just messed up.

Yeah, I have been more and more shocked at what I am finding in the voting system we have now. Even Curtis the Fl programmer was assuming certain procedures. It's just amazing. The thing is the Media really isn't talking about it either. Seems like it would be more important than Rush Limbaugh. Also seems like some govt agencies would be rather concerned.
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Old 03-25-2012, 08:21 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,006 posts, read 4,178,359 times
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It was such a weird series of events and rather than trying to prepare against the Ron Paul support, MO should have just let the chips fall where they may across the board.
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Old 03-26-2012, 11:54 AM
 
Location: vagabond
2,631 posts, read 4,928,691 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CDusr View Post
I am still trying to figure out how the police got away with arresting people. I mean why would they do that? Showing up is one thing. That is just messed up.
i think that ron paul supporters underestimate the prejudice against them, and misunderstand what is causing it. i think establishment republicans are not just against paul and his supporters because of policy issues, but because of cultural issues; they see paul supporters as anarchists and pot-smoking hippies.

out of all of the paul supporters that i know, including myself, only one of them could be labeled a pot-head, and he's been clean now for a few years. and i don't know any paul supporters that could be correctly labeled an anarchist.

in the st. charles missouri case, the GOP's prejudice bled over and ended up affecting everyone else too, but the evidence is pretty clear that the whole thing was a local GOP plot to silence the paul supporters. the collateral damage may have been unintentional, but there is no excuse for any of it either way.

Quote:
Yeah, I have been more and more shocked at what I am finding in the voting system we have now. Even Curtis the Fl programmer was assuming certain procedures.
one of the articles that i read put this pretty well. the GOP is being herded or manipulate into these caucus riggings and similar frauds––not justifiably, mind you.

the GOP has set up these rules for caucuses, using robert's rules of order, and whatever GOP procedures have evolved, all in the purpose of allowing a majority of caucus voters to dominate the caucus. this is usually the establishment, so it has worked well for the GOP in the past. but paul supporters are often so organized, and such a large percentage of them actually come to the caucuses compared to normal establishment republicans, that that majority has turned to paul supporters in many precincts.

so the GOP feels (on an individual level, as far as i have seen; i haven't seen evidence of conspiracies from national leadership) that they need mitigate the paul supporters' majority, and the only way they can do that is through dirty things like falsifying vote counts, ramrod-appointing their establishment buddies into offices instead of allowing nominations, etc.

they're digging their own grave, of course, because they are dismissing the constitution, the declaration of independence, and all of the values that our country was founded upon, and because they are disenfranchising and screwing a lot of people over in the process.

Quote:
It's just amazing. The thing is the Media really isn't talking about it either. Seems like it would be more important than Rush Limbaugh. Also seems like some govt agencies would be rather concerned.
liberal media, i'd think, would have a ball with all of these GOP circus performances, and would want to keep tabs on every case of voter fraud and caucus rigging. but they are too closely tied to the same level of establishment corruption that the republicans are, so maybe that is keeping them quiet.

and fox is keeping quite because it doesn't fit with their uber conservative, establishment-supporting positions.
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Old 03-26-2012, 06:55 PM
 
Location: Out West
22,576 posts, read 16,721,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moving_pains View Post
You are talking to the wall here.

GOPers in this forum thinks election fraud in the GOP primaries is a "hoax" - like big foot, climate change, evolution, yeti, Loch Ness monster etc. In their world of reality, a Satanic Communist black Muslim from Kenya has illegally taken over their country, and they are the holy warriors ordained by Jesus Christ, fighting to regain their Churches back from Obama before he paints them over with yellow hammers and sickles. Stymieing their progress is a kooky frail old man lamenting about some things called "Constitution", "Liberty" etc. Who cares? They are following Saint Santorum of the Holy Order of Condom Police to victory, and can't be bothered by nuisances like these.
I'm in awe. I'm in absolute awe. I thought I was the queen of sarcasm but you do this so well.

Your posts crack me up constantly. Problem is, they are rooted in reality.
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