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Old 04-05-2012, 10:50 AM
Status: "Elect a clown? Expect a circus!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
58,064 posts, read 40,832,224 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash255 View Post
Wanting to write discrimination into the Constitution of the United States because something goes aganst your personal religious beliefs is what exactly??
This was done by?

When?

Specifics please, not some generic fear-mongering about 'attacks on religion' when no specifics are ever given.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Alameda, CA
7,465 posts, read 3,947,416 times
Reputation: 1369
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
I already said it was never an issue for me. But since you insist that Reverend Wright was not racist against white-America in is rhetoric, here you go:


BARACK OBAMA Pastor ANTI-AMERICAN Rev Jeremiah Wright Racism - YouTube


Rev. Wright; God Damn America - Long Version - Obama Preacher Rant - YouTube


Rev. Jeremiah Wright's Racist Rant: Allah and Yahweh Are the Same - YouTube

Now to be clear, I agree with Rev Wright that blacks and others have been treated badly. But the man clearly is extremely mean-spirited, angry and flat-out hateful in his rhetoric. His sermons have frequently been calculated to stir up anger and hatred for white America, which Wright clearly sees as the enslaver and exploiter of blacks. He does not come right out and say, "Kill whitey!!" but that is the direction his sermons are going. He does not come right out and say that white Christians are worshiping a false god, but that is clearly what he is implying. This is not the kind of thing that mends bridges and heals the wounds of the past. This rhetoric just preserves the bitterness and anger from generation to generation to generation, ensuring that it never ends.
He preaches against white supremacy not whites in general. As has been pointed out in this thread already [ http://www.city-data.com/forum/23719861-post12.html ], white supremacy was entwined into American theology thought for many centuries
"The whole 'curse on the sons of Ham/seed of Cain' bs predates mormonism by at least a century and was used by many christian denominations in the United States.."

Rev. Wright is not preaching that the rest of his fellow UCC congregants are worshiping a false God. Rev. Wright does preach that Christian thought in this country, and frankly in other countries as well, got twisted when some allowed and accepted white supremacy as part of their theology.

Yes, it is easy to take out of context snippets and make all kinds of claims about what Rev. Wright and Trinity UCC are preaching and trying to do. But at some point the assertions should be measured against the reality and based on the acknowledgement of what they have accomplished and the respect and friendship that they have earned both from within the denomination and from outside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010
Mormonism has something in common with blacks in American history. They were illegally driven from New York, Ohio, Missouri and Illinois in succession. So they left the USA altogether, only to find that their destination had just become part of the USA when they got there because the Mexican-American War happened while they were enroute. And with the Mormons a thousand miles or more removed from the rest of the nation, the federal government still saw fit to send the army to attack them in what is now Utah. They're duly elected governor was removed and a federally imposed governor was forced on them by threat of violence. In the 1800's Mormon leaders were assaulted, assassinated and murdered. Their houses were burned, their women were raped and their children killed or more often starved to death during these sudden displacements -- which always just happened to take place in the middle of the winter. And nobody ever stood trial for any of these crimes. For decades, Mormons had their right to vote stripped from them purely because they were Mormon. Mormonism has a lot of reasons to hate the USA, yet they preach the exact opposite and don't hate America at all. They're actually some of the most patriotic people you will ever meet. Personally, I think theirs is a better approach to the crimes of the past.
Rev. Wright and the people at Trinity UCC are also patriots. However I do think it is dangerous to somehow equate religion and patriotism. God is the God of all, not just Americans.
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Old 04-05-2012, 10:59 AM
 
9,969 posts, read 6,267,659 times
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It appeared to me that religion was off the table in 2008, at least for the MSM, funny how things change. While I never cared for Obama, I always thought that at least he could think for himself. Since both his fathers were Muslim, it's pretty amazing he wound up in the Church of Christ (regardless of Wright). As far as the Mormon apologists go, 1978 was late, period. Whine all you want about other religions, fact is they have had black preachers for eons. What's important is that it's 2012 now and Mitt himself has never been a racist. Why don't people just play the gender card. Why are Kerry, Biden, Pelosi and Santorum Catholics? There are no women in the priesthood, blah blah blah. Playing the race card is just as bogus and stupid as that. Just vote for the person whose policies and voting records you agree with.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Alameda, CA
7,465 posts, read 3,947,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
You find that offensive? I find the notion that anyone failing to accept Christ will spend the rest of eternity burning in hell to be vastly more offensive. No matter how bad you were in this life, you are only capable of committing a finite amount of sin. And the majority of humankind that ever lived is going to suffer for an infinite amount of time for their finite amount of sins. That doctrinal stance held by most traditional Christian religions has never made any sense to me. I think it transforms a perfectly just God into a terrifyingly unjust God and I will always reject that notion.

It just so happens that Mormonism also rejects that notion. Proxy baptism for those that are deceased is an integral part of that belief because they believe that baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation. But because the Jews specifically asked them not to perform proxy baptisms for Holocaust victims, they have a policy that doing baptisms for Holocaust victims is taboo and not allowed. If some Mormon does a proxy baptism for Anne Frank tomorrow, they are doing so in direct defiance of what their leaders have told them. That doesn't mean it won't happen, just that they've been told quite clearly not to.

In the Catholic and traditional Protestant viewpoint, Anne Frank gets to burn in hell for all eternity for her failure to accept Christ while she was alive. Now I'm not going to weigh in on the necessity of her getting a Mormon proxy baptism, but I find the Catholic and traditional Protestant teaching that Anne burns in hell forever to be vastly more offensive. To be honest, the only reason the traditional "burn for eternity" doctrine is less controversial than the Mormon proxy baptisms is that it is familiar to people. I think it's pretty obvious which of the two is actually malicious and mean spirited and it ain't Mormonism.
I would emphasize the point that it is not a universally held Christian belief, with acknowledgment that many Christians do believe it.
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Long Island (chief in S Farmingdale)
18,977 posts, read 15,437,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
This was done by?

When?

Specifics please, not some generic fear-mongering about 'attacks on religion' when no specifics are ever given.
Romney suppots the FMA and has said he wants it passed.... If that isn't wanting to use your own personal religious beliefs to dictate policy...
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Old 04-05-2012, 11:47 AM
 
2,737 posts, read 4,320,162 times
Reputation: 1785
Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
No, you'll still be full of crap.
PARTIALLY full of crap...


Given the prevalenc of wine in the Bible at occasions like the wedding at Cana and the Last Supper I find a Christian religion's banning of alcohol non-sensical. Is it really about God or control of the 'flock'?
Why don't you just admit that Mormons are against consumption of alcohol, rather than try to convince me that they're wrong?


With what, gonna regale us with stories of why we shouldn't drink coffee and why pre-marital sex is a no-no?
You REALLY don't follow intelligent linear thought very well, do you?


Don't bother, just more hoodoo voodoo IMO.
I won't bother trying to engage in a battle of wits with a person who is obviously unarmed.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:13 PM
 
Location: Chicago Area
8,006 posts, read 4,178,980 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamSmyth View Post
He preaches against white supremacy not whites in general. As has been pointed out in this thread already [ http://www.city-data.com/forum/23719861-post12.html ], white supremacy was entwined into American theology thought for many centuries
"The whole 'curse on the sons of Ham/seed of Cain' bs predates mormonism by at least a century and was used by many christian denominations in the United States.."

Rev. Wright is not preaching that the rest of his fellow UCC congregants are worshiping a false God. Rev. Wright does preach that Christian thought in this country, and frankly in other countries as well, got twisted when some allowed and accepted white supremacy as part of their theology.

Yes, it is easy to take out of context snippets and make all kinds of claims about what Rev. Wright and Trinity UCC are preaching and trying to do. But at some point the assertions should be measured against the reality and based on the acknowledgement of what they have accomplished and the respect and friendship that they have earned both from within the denomination and from outside.

Rev. Wright and the people at Trinity UCC are also patriots. However I do think it is dangerous to somehow equate religion and patriotism. God is the God of all, not just Americans.
Bear in mind, as I already stated, it does not offend me -- a white, blond haired blue eyed Christian man -- that blacks are upset about the past treatment of their people. I think they have a right to be very upset.

But those are the snippets that people are calling "Rev Wright preaching racism" against whites and "Rev Wright teaching blacks to hate America." And yes, I see why they're calling it that. The passionate anger in his words are impossible to miss. I think it's useful to know the past, but dwelling on past crimes of generations long dead serves no good purpose. Racism needs to be dealt with head-on as it is now, not as it used to be.

I do find it puzzling that much of the over-the-top racist dogma of southern Protestantism found it's way into Mormon theology, albeit in a much milder form -- then those same Protestants turn around and call Mormons a racist religion. Even the Southern Baptist Church, the most racist of them all, has put all that behind them, officially apologizing for their racist dogmatism of the past in 1993. And everyone accepts this as genuine and valid. But Mormonism casting aside it's own lesser dogmatic stand in 1978, they remain unforgiven and unforgivable. Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses -- for some reason it is fashionable to use a double-standard when criticizing these religions. I've always found that strange. I see it as bullying and if there's one thing I can't stand it's a bully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamSmyth View Post
I would emphasize the point that it is not a universally held Christian belief, with acknowledgment that many Christians do believe it.
It is the traditional doctrinal stance of Christendom. I don't believe it and I don't think that makes me non-Christian. Quite the opposite. But the "burn in hell for all eternity" dogma is widely accepted among all traditional Christians I know of. It is only newer Christian religions that reject the notion of infinite punishment for finite sin and Mormons are among those newer religions.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:46 PM
Status: "Elect a clown? Expect a circus!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
58,064 posts, read 40,832,224 times
Reputation: 29744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big George View Post
I won't bother trying to engage in a battle of wits with a person who is obviously unarmed.
Well Mittwit, YOU are the one who made the totally erroneous, basless, lying allegation that I hate Romney.

Being that you are so very obviously out of touch with reality and uninformed about what you speak of I'd have to say I believe you to be incredibly unqualified to make any judgements about the wit or lack of of anyone else.

But, not to worry, I won't bother trying to engage you in a battle of anything that might entail something factual as you're obviously unfamiliar with the concept.
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:51 PM
Status: "Elect a clown? Expect a circus!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
58,064 posts, read 40,832,224 times
Reputation: 29744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big George View Post
You REALLY don't follow intelligent linear thought very well, do you?
Do you plan on presenting any sometime soon?
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Old 04-05-2012, 12:58 PM
Status: "Elect a clown? Expect a circus!" (set 7 days ago)
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
58,064 posts, read 40,832,224 times
Reputation: 29744
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smash255 View Post
Romney suppots the FMA and has said he wants it passed.... If that isn't wanting to use your own personal religious beliefs to dictate policy...
Good point!

He turned me off enough his the chest thumping 'Let's go out and project American strength' rhetoric that I stopped paying attention.
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