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The issue to me with gay marriage and the GOP is as follows.
-I have always supported the GOP because I believe they are the party that tends to respect individual rights and negative freedom (freedom from intervention) in a better light.
-Allowing a minority of the population to have their rights dictated by the majority is an infringement upon their liberties.
-Therefore, to me, the more theoretically republican position would be to "get the government" out of the bedroom and in this case...the courthouse by making marriage an equal right regardless of who wants to do it.
-Furthermore, to me dictating the rights of the minority by a referndum on the majority is an expansion of government into their personal autonomy which, to me at least is fundamentally incompatable with what the reducing the size of government itself.
You're just now figuring this out? There is absolutely nothing small government about the modern republican party, and that's why I left. They want the worst of both worlds--huge, ginormous government on social issues, and wild west style, every man for himself NO government on economic issues, unless it means pork and support to fund their deep pocket corporate buddies. It's insane.
You're just now figuring this out? There is absolutely nothing small government about the modern republican party, and that's why I left. They want the worst of both worlds--huge, ginormous government on social issues, and wild west style, every man for himself NO government on economic issues, unless it means pork and support to fund their deep pocket corporate buddies. It's insane.
I agree with some of your post and disagree with other parts but ultimately I think they lose a ton of votes on the social issues...they may shore up some religious voters in the bible belt but they lose so many more in our urban population centers. Like I mentioned in the op...if a Jon Huntsman style moderate, center-right, technocrat ran for office with a quasi libertarian platform on social issues and a lean regulatory stance on the economy I think they would be almost unstoppable.
Location: On the "Left Coast", somewhere in "the Land of Fruits & Nuts"
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Originally Posted by wnewberry22
I agree with some of your post and disagree with other parts but ultimately I think they lose a ton of votes on the social issues...they may shore up some religious voters in the bible belt but they lose so many more in our urban population centers. Like I mentioned in the op...if a Jon Huntsman style moderate, center-right, technocrat ran for office with a quasi libertarian platform on social issues and a lean regulatory stance on the economy I think they would be almost unstoppable.
Dunno about the "unstoppable" part, but even speaking as a lib-rul, would still mostly like to agree with you. Although IMHO, a large part of the current GOP problem isn't even about "politics" anymore, per se, as it is "systemic". Instead, when the GOP first started courting what I'd call the "low-end", things like the internet, cable tv news and "talk radio" were still relatively new and under-utilized.
Since then, I think it's been no coincidence that the ascendance of the neo-con extremists now steering the party, has also paralleled the rise of these new, 'non-traditional' media... which BTW, have the new ability to create their own closed, self-referential world. And is there really anything else that adequately explains so much of the totally bat-sh*t crazy stuff that gets routinely passed around (and around and around) as "politics" now?
And seems to me we finally saw the death-knell of the old-guard GOP in the 2008 election, when McCain was the chosen candidate... yet meanwhile the "new-media" pundits like Limbaugh and others were simultaneously rejecting him... also violating the once cardinal rule of Ronald Reagan, that "Republicans never criticize other Republicans"! BTW, as to the solution, I don't really see one (even in a Huntsman-type), because by courting the crazies, the GOP finally opened Pandora's Box, and so it's hard to see how any Republican candidate now can possibly reconcile all the nuttiness that's been let loose (of which the constant flip-flopping by a moderate like Romney is a perfect example)!
Republican Party will fracture in a few more years. They won't be able to maintain neo-cons, religious right, and libertarians. It's a two party system, though, so if that coalation is broken and a signficant minor party emerges both will be left with 2nd place, and we know what 2nd place means in our system of representation.
Party ideological bases are constantly in flux. The GOP of the 2000's isn't the GOP of the 1980's and that GOP isn't the GOP of the 1950's and the same could be said for the Democrats. Ultimately all it takes is an influential standard bearer to move the base in one direction or the other ideologically speaking...I just hope that this "standard bearer" is one that moves it towards the center-right in opposition to further away from the moderates.
Regardless of how this election turns out I hope that Mitt governs the country as a Moderate, or if he loses in 2016 I hope that the GOP has a center right reboot because I think that will save the party from moving to the margins of political obscurity.
We all have our opinions of President Obama, and I certainly see why many are disappointed with him. But man, some people are just completely taking this to a whole new level of madness. I live in Washington, and the other day I was listening to WMAL...they literally have a 12 hour segment dedicated to bashing Obama:
9-12: Chris Plante
12-3: Rush Limbaugh
3-6: Sean Hannity
6-9: Mark Levin
This isn't just political commentary, it's literally non-stop over-the-board Obama-bashing. He can do no good whatsoever, absolutely everything he does is evil. According to these guys, the President's only goal is to destroy America and the Constitution, and turn this country into a communist third world country. And every liberal who disagrees with them is a retard, anti-American loon. And of course everyone but them belongs to the liberal, corrupt mainstream media whose only goal is to make sure President Obama is reelected. Seriously, it's over-the-board, the sheer amount of hate and anger that emanates from this 12 hour segment is truly depressing.
I still believe, or want to believe, that America is a generally center-leaning nation and that these folks don't truly represent what the GOP is all about. But I do fear that the Republican party is on a trend that is taking them closer and closer to this and away from the center.
And obviously the left has it's own over-the-board nuts, but that's the subject of another thread. The fact is the American left is still much more right-leaning than in almost any other industrialized country in the world.
I agree...I'm sure that you see the Flake and Carmona ad on literally ALL the time. They are ridiculous. It just irritates me that these days you can't see two moderate politicians talk about the issues in a reasonable fashion. To me the 2012 GOP, if they had any sense, would have nominated Jon Huntsman to run against Obama but moderates just can't survive in the fringes of the primaries. The papers characterized Huntsman as a liberal despite one of the most conservative fiscal records in Utah all the while earning the nod of being the most well managed state in the country...I just don't get it.
But even moderate politicians change their politics when getting the party nod. McCain moved more to the right when he was running in 2008...Carmona moved to the left after he was tapped to be the Dem for senate...Flake has moved more to the right since running for senate as well. For once, I would love to see a candidate just stay where they really are.
huntsman would have been torn apart for his chemical company and his big business ties to china by obama and his minions.
I just don't think that the "crazies" are more prevalent in the GOP than the Democrats. The "crazy" people may just be a little louder in the GOP. The Democrats are full of fringe nut jobs as well...I just think they maybe keep to themselves a bit more but ultimately all parties have their nut jobs.
If the GOP moves to the middle a bit more on social issues I sincerely think they would come away with a lot of elections with increased ease.
You've got to be kidding me. The GOP is full of birther, anti-evolution, anti-gay, religious nut jobs. Not all conservatives of course, but a shockingly large minority. I mean look at the 2012 line up, Bachman, Santorum, Perry..jeez. These wingnuts have actively purged the RINOs from the party. The Dems to not have the term DINO, for a good reason, they are not so rabidly liberal. We want competent, intelligent candidates, not goofballs. Even Howard Dean, by all accounts a very bright man, was too high strung for us.
You are right, a center-right candidate would have a good chance for the GOP (unless Obama pulls a miracle, I suspect incumbent fatigue will kick in and the pendulum will swing), but you would also need a center right VP. No one wants a moronic zealot like Palin or Bachman or Ryan a heartbeat from the Presidency. My feeling is that the executive branch should alternate from center left to center right. I think Huntsman in 2016 is a pretty good plan. The Dems have no one of his experience on deck, and he is a pragmatist, who would know how to continued with some of Obama's better programs. He might have to slug it out with Michael Bloomberg though. Although either of those guys would be competent and historical (first LDS or Jewish President), I suspect they will go for a zealot like Marco Rubio.
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