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Old 11-11-2012, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
19,496 posts, read 13,146,265 times
Reputation: 14218

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The conservatives must temper their thoughts on immigration, but I think they will. Everyone wants substantial immigration reform, but it is both complex and emotionally difficult as an issue. That's why reform has been kicked down the road for so long- Congress is prone to let the hard stuff get side-passed to a later bunch of new Congresspeople, because being on the wrong side of public opinion can cost them their job.

So divisive issues almost always get nothing done until a point of crisis is reached. Even when an issue becomes critical, Congress prefers to slap a patch on it and hope a halfway measure will hold long enough to get them through another term. Substantial immigration reform is so critical now that it's going to cause some incumbents to lose their jobs, not matter what is reached.
But I expect many more incumbents will suddenly see the light and become staunch supporters if a reform bill has enough agreement building. It takes political courage to reverse course, but once the charge is underway, it's always easier to follow the brave leaders who are out in front.

One thing is sure; neither party can afford to be on the wrong side of this. The sooner the base of both parties accept that the United States is no longer a majority of white Protestant Christians, the better it will be for each. While the Democratic party has a big favorability advantage right now, there are a lot of Hispanics that are conservative.

But as long as there's a chance of Uncle Juan being deported suddenly, or the feeling that they are being punished for speaking the wrong language or for keeping their culture, they will always go for the party that is more accepting of them. Neither Democrats nor Republicans have to bend over backwards in accommodation; the Hispanics don't expect any extra-special treatment. They just want some elemental fairness and acceptance for who they are.
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:05 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,923,592 times
Reputation: 22174
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smoke_Jaguar4 View Post
I was not aware that "illegals" could vote

If you mean Obama's outreach to Hispanic voters, perhaps it's shocking to you that if you treat persons as presumed criminals or less than human, then they probably won't vote for you. This is the outcome from those groups the GOP has alienated to scare up the old, white, male vote. Hispanics, blacks, homosexuals, non-Christians, women, etc...

Start treating people like human beings, and then they might start voting for you.
Then you are not very aware. Illegals most definitely vote and why else would Obama be promising amnesty --- American citizens do not need amnesty.
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:06 PM
 
47,576 posts, read 58,923,592 times
Reputation: 22174
We do not need an amnesty and millions more illegals coming here -- which of course they would do to get in on Obama's amnesty when there are 24 million Americans out of work. That's is as foolish a plan as it comes.
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
19,496 posts, read 13,146,265 times
Reputation: 14218
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
Then you are not very aware. Illegals most definitely vote and why else would Obama be promising amnesty --- American citizens do not need amnesty.
You don't know what Obama is proposing. And apparently, you don't know what Boehner or McConnell are proposing, either. Why don't you just hang out for a while until you actually see what's going to come through Congress?

I haven't heard any big uproar about illegal votes. I'm sure there were some, but if it was so massive as to become a scandalous issue, at least a few objective reports would have come out by now.

And don't believe all American citizens think the same way you do about immigration. Your opinions are only yours alone. You don't speak for me or anyone else.
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:26 PM
 
Location: South Seattle Suburbs
3,348 posts, read 5,827,490 times
Reputation: 3523
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Obvious View Post

As a Californian I would love a Republican franchise that would focus on shrinking state government and stay out of social issues entirely.
http://ca.lp.org/
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Old 11-11-2012, 12:41 PM
 
Location: Palm Springs, CA
26,503 posts, read 24,324,020 times
Reputation: 7682
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian71 View Post
I agree.

But my impression is that most Americans are afraid of real freedom. They want to control the economy, or people's personal behavior - or sometimes both.
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Old 11-11-2012, 01:02 PM
 
9,974 posts, read 11,460,997 times
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Quote:
If they do, don't they lose there base?
Well, that particular base you speak of, the one backing the "social" issues, is very vocal. They aren't going anywhere. I doubt they will become non-voters. These people will still want to vote. Many of them are extremely anti-democrat except for the faction of Catholics who believe that helping the poor and the common man trumps abortion--and there are plenty of them. In a nutshell, I don't think they will lose their base. The base may grumble, but I think they will pick up a lot of democratic voters who are more fiscally conservative but had to vote democrat because they feel so strongly about civil rights and personal rights.
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Old 11-11-2012, 01:07 PM
 
1,058 posts, read 947,327 times
Reputation: 624
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adrian71 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnUnidentifiedMale View Post
I agree.

But my impression is that most Americans are afraid of real freedom. They want to control the economy, or people's personal behavior - or sometimes both.
Did you two actually read their platform?

Their positions on illegal immigrants are crazy.

Therefore, we:
A. oppose mandatory reporting by employers of their employees' nationalities.
B. oppose fining employers who hire so-called illegal aliens.
C. oppose wholesale dragnets that round up immigrants and other people from their
homes or workplaces.

As for taxes...We advocate that so-called "public services" be funded in the same manner as private
organizations―through voluntary contributions and charges for services for which the user
has voluntarily contracted.

Now onto the environment...We call for the repeal of the Clean Air Act and call for the abolition of the federal and state
Environmental Protection Agencies and the return, to the jurisdiction of the courts, of all
questions of violations of the rights to life and property.
We support holding property owners fully liable for damages done by their toxic waste. We
oppose the creation of governmental funds, backed by the taxing power, to finance toxic
waste clean-up.

So I guess freedom means a bunch of illegal immigrants working anywhere they want, no public services, and no governmental agencies controlling pollution. I guess this would be a great place to be a tort lawyer what with zero government regulation.
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Old 11-11-2012, 01:07 PM
 
10,115 posts, read 6,765,963 times
Reputation: 3408
Quote:
Originally Posted by malamute View Post
No they should not.

It's important to analyze election results beyond what the mass media proclaims.

Romney got 3 million fewer votes than McCain had in 2008. HOWEVER Obama had 10 million fewer votes in 2012 than he had in 2008 and that was in spite of very big pandering to the illegals which likely picked him up 3 or 4 million or more votes.

If this trend continues, and the Reps get 3 million fewer votes in 2016, and the Dems get 10 million fewer votes in 2016 then guess what happens.

If Obama continues to ignore the needs of black voters and creates jobs only for the illegals -- whose unemployment rates are already FAR better than that of blacks then why would they bother to vote in 2016.

No it's foolish to throw your base under the bus. The only thing Obama is doing is throwing his old base under the bus but replacing it with a new one.
You tried to make this case on another thread, and it's still not making any sense. First the d's only went down by 7M, not 10, and the counts from provisional ballots and early voting aren't in yet from heavily democratic areas like California. Second, on what basis can you predict that the vote will continue to go down each year? I'm no mathematician or statistician, but to predict a trend, you have to have more than the difference between two events. There's no reason to believe that there's a pattern there. Last, the tea party base is dying off--it's composed overwhelmingly of old white guys. The areas of growth are in young minority voters--who will CONTINUE to grow exponentially each year, and who are overwhelmingly voting D. When the social issues you make a priority in your campaigns--hard line on immigration, anti gay rights, no abortion under any circumstances, etc. etc. scare the crap out of younger voters, women and minorities, there's no way you're going to win with them. It's even worse than that--you "new R's" have been openly hostile to large parts of the electorate. WHY would they vote for you?
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Old 11-11-2012, 01:15 PM
 
10,115 posts, read 6,765,963 times
Reputation: 3408
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristineVA View Post
Well, that particular base you speak of, the one backing the "social" issues, is very vocal. They aren't going anywhere. I doubt they will become non-voters. These people will still want to vote. Many of them are extremely anti-democrat except for the faction of Catholics who believe that helping the poor and the common man trumps abortion--and there are plenty of them. In a nutshell, I don't think they will lose their base. The base may grumble, but I think they will pick up a lot of democratic voters who are more fiscally conservative but had to vote democrat because they feel so strongly about civil rights and personal rights.
There are growing groups of evangelicals who are more focused on helping the poor than conservative social issues, but you tend to find them in more midwestern and northern states vs. the south. What I hear you saying is that the R party could go back to the way it was under Reagan and the Bush years--talk the talk on social conservative issues, but not initiate policy reform in those areas. That's the difference between then and now--the R's have told far right Christians that they supported them until the last couple of years but never tried to pass laws on their issues. Now that they're actively trying to pass far right social legislation, they're scaring the crap out of people, and pushing more moderate voters from the R party.
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