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Old 11-14-2012, 08:14 PM
 
23,874 posts, read 16,108,461 times
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I fell pretty confident that Democrats/Liberals/Progresssives will always have the edge on the party of dinosaurs and archaic policies. By comparison, the right wing might as well have used cave wall writing.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 13,644,717 times
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Sounds like Pres. Obama should install some of his campaign whizzes at the ATF. It does not sound like these people would think it a fine idea to somehow reduce "gun violence" by shipping several thousand guns to drug dealers with no way to track them.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:50 PM
 
Location: Hinckley Ohio
6,722 posts, read 4,277,462 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wutitiz View Post
Sounds like Pres. Obama should install some of his campaign whizzes at the ATF. It does not sound like these people would think it a fine idea to somehow reduce "gun violence" by shipping several thousand guns to drug dealers with no way to track them.
When did ATF ship thousand of guns to drug dealers??? I think you making a few leaps that aren't factual.
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Old 11-14-2012, 08:55 PM
 
Location: Old Bellevue, WA
18,794 posts, read 13,644,717 times
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Agent: I was ordered to let U.S. guns into Mexico - CBS News
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Old 11-14-2012, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Hinckley Ohio
6,722 posts, read 4,277,462 times
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Straw buyers making legal gun purchases from gun dealers does not equal ATF agents shipping thousands of guns to drug dealers. The facts aren't with you or your statement.
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Old 11-15-2012, 11:40 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
1,991 posts, read 3,406,330 times
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Originally Posted by tigerlily View Post
My gut reaction to the President's poor performance in the first debate was that there had to be a reason. His former personal assistant, Reggie, (can't remember his last name) likened his debate performance to a basketball game. Obama shines when he's under pressure.
I saw all 3 debates, and to me it was clear and simple what happened in the first debate. All the news media seemed to wonder "what happened" and said Obama phoned it in or whatever, but it was all about what people believe a debate is:

Obama envisioned the 1st debate as a chance to express his policy points and contrast them with Romney's policy points that had been made all during the Republican primaries. Obama was appealing to middle America with a reasoned argument as to what makes him different from Romney and what makes his policies better than Romney's.

The PROBLEM, ie. the answer to "what happened" is that that's NOT what Democratic pundits and Americans at large envisioned or expected in a debate. They always expected a contact sport, Dem pundits expected Obama to launch into Romney with tough rhetoric and to cut him to shreds. The public at large expected Obama to sound strong, look strong. In other words, to both Dem pundits and the general public, TONE was what was important, content was not. Obama was focusing, again, on content, on the arguments, on the contrast. Mitt Romney focused on TONE, on ATTACK. So when you heard the reporters commenting, they focused on Romney looking at Obama and attacking, and on Obama looking down. Never mind Obama was looking down taking notes to use TO PRESENT AN ARGUMENT/COUNTER A ROMNEY ARGUMENT. And never mind that Obama DID present his argument/counter Romney's argument- that was irrelevant, tone was all that mattered.

To illustrate this, let's take Romney's claim that he didn't have any $5 trillion tax cut. When Romney responded to Obama that way, Obama later stated AGAIN that Romney's cut equates to $5 trillion. In other words, Obama INSISTED, REITERATED, and of course Romney said again that he didn't have a $5 trillion cut. To Dem pundits and American voters, it didn't matter that Obama insisted that Romney did and so it didn't matter what argument Obama was making about how the $5 trillion couldn't be paid for without cutting deductions that are important to the middle class. It didn't matter the Obama rebutted and noted that Romney said one thing during the primaries but now has a position of "Never Mind." What mattered was that Obama didn't TONALLY object to Romney's denial, he didn't use forceful tone or outrage in his voice. Him calling Romney's position "Never Mind" wasn't done strenuously or forcefully enough or with enough tonal outrage. So after the debate, CNN contributors were asking why Obama just let Romney get away with that bogus claim? Yet Obama DIDN'T let Romney get away with it, Obama DID counter. But since he didn't counter with strong tone and forceful words, everybody took it as if he didn't counter at all. So in the end Obama making the arguments or using reasoning, or rebutting arguments didn't matter. In the end, tone and force of speech and body language was all that mattered.

It didn't have anything to do with Obama not being under much pressure. It had to do with Obama incorrectly giving Americans more credit than they deserve, giving them credit for being interested in the intellectual exchange of ideas, being interested in the details of how his policies are superior to Romney's, when in fact they were only interested in how forcefully the candidates could snipe at one another, who could do verbal battle with the most intensity. THAT is why the statement was made that Obama seemed like he didn't really want to be there. It was all seen from the lens of forcefulness = interest in the event, and intellectual policy argument = boring details and lack of enthusiasm.

But Obama can't say that after the fact, all he can do is say he had an off night and make jokes about himself. Getting into talking about people being more interested in the sport of it than in the policy arguments is a LOSING proposition for Obama- makes him look like a sore loser making excuses. Nevertheless, it's the truth. So it's simple what was wrong with Obama during the 1st debate: Obama came to attack using policy distinction as his weapons whereas Romney came to attack using tone and forceful wording as his weapons, and viewers cared more for tone, body language, and forceful wording than for policy distinction. It was all about appearances over content. Sound forceful with an intellectuall failing argument, viewers say you won, sound calm and collected with an intellectually superior argument, viewers say you lost. And THAT's why I think Obama probably doesn't like debates- he is a thinker and he realizes that national political debates are unfortunately not about articulating the superiority of well thought out policy. Viewers are simple minded and believe tough words and simple catch phrases = strong leader even if your tough words are really a load of BS and are the weaker common sense position.

Me, I watch a debate to find out more details about candidates' positions and to see which positions make more sense to me. I could give a rip who uses tougher language or who gets who told or who rips whom with a zinger or who looks down the least or who seems eager or more animated or who didn't sigh or who didn't laugh. None of that stuff to me has anything to do with what I want to see somebody do once they are in the Oval Office, and none of that stuff gives me any better idea of what somebody MIGHT do once they are in the Oval Office. What they say ABOUT policy does. So I watch for what they say about policy. But that's just me.

Last edited by MantaRay; 11-15-2012 at 11:49 AM..
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