U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Elections
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-19-2012, 03:59 AM
 
8,399 posts, read 5,077,817 times
Reputation: 2314

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by eRayP View Post
You are wrong about the dependency. The only way I depend on the government is when I depend on them to correctly process the check I was forced to write to them. A 401K is a form of saving money that was earned and putting it away for retirement. Not sure how owning a home makes me dependent on the government, no HUD loan or whatever you call it here. So no you are wrong. What is upsetting conservatives and republicans (at least those of us at the bottom) is we know that anytime the government wants to raise taxes they always hit us at the low end. We are tired of working our butts off only to be forced to give a chunk to the government before we get it.
I am not wrong. The 401k is a direct government subsidy. It is government dependency. The government essentially sends out a check so you can save for retirement. All the workers whose employers don't offer 401ks and there are 10's of millions of them don't get that government gift/giveaway.

In terms of homeownership, do you think that if the government didn't guarantee many of these loans that banks would have ever made loans for 30yrs or 15yrs without the buyer putting down like 50% or more?

The whole US mortgage industry is dependent on the government. It couldn't function at least the way it has for 70years or so without it.
And if you own a home, you benefit from that dependency. Not only that the mortgage interest deduction is a huge government subsidy. It is government dependency.

All of the people who are renters which numbers in the 10's of millions don't get that gift/giveaway.

This is what irks me the most. People's whose whole lives are sudsidized by the government essentially sending them a check that is denied to other tax payers getting upset at what other Americans get from the same government. It is astonishing the blindness the lack of knowledge.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-19-2012, 04:09 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,563 posts, read 15,774,500 times
Reputation: 6259
Quote:
Originally Posted by afoigrokerkok View Post
The GOP HAS to improve more than 10-15 points among Hispanics. After a few more presidential elections, there will be no way to win without doing so.

When you say there's really not much the GOP can do, we simply have to. It is not optional. For 2016 they should have a goal of getting at least 10% of the black vote, 35% of the Hispanic vote, and 35% of the Asian vote.



I agree, except on CA. That state is hopeless for the GOP for the forseeable future. I wonder how much Asians and Hispanics hurt Romney in VA. They are both fairly decent-sized percentages of the electorate in the state.
The GOP generally gets 10% of the black vote. The GOPs best course of action is getting out more of the White vote. Romney lost because white voters stayed home. In Ohio Blacks made up 15% of the electorate when they only make up 11-12% of the state pop. This suggests not only increased black turnout but decreased turnout.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2012, 04:13 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,563 posts, read 15,774,500 times
Reputation: 6259
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
Truthfully speaking, there is little they could do. Yes, I think the party is extremely hostile to my people, but its really not racial with me when I think about it.

Republicans love wars too much. They have never met a military expenditure they didn't like. They demonize teachers and academia in general. They care too much about life in the womb and too little about life outside of it. They talk too darn much about faith. They deny science with stunning regularity. They worship anyone with a lot of money, and give little to ZERO value to people without it. They hate unions and slavishly exalt business owners and corporarists. They bemoan something as common sensical as universal healthcare. They hate or are suspicious of the arts and artists. We can spend billions on bombs, but funding the arts is seen as unworthy.

And the tax thing is just incredible. They're constantly falling on their political swords for the wealthy when half of the wealthy doesn't even vote Republican. Anything to protect the wealthy.

But the worst thing to me is the echo chamber. We have kooks on the left, but the right wing kooks are ROYALTY on that side of the aisle. And they even manage to get elected with regularity. Michelle Bachmann has no business working as a burger flipper, let alone in Congress. Sarah Palin was a Veep Candidate for God's sake! I'm sorry, but if you don't think Palin is a can of Planters, you're just delusional. And yet, Republicans deny that this is a strong signal that they're an anti intellectual party, and they're proud of it.

As it pertains to race, I can overlook the hostility. But all of the aforementioned is simply too much to ignore.
This is a good post. I actually agree with the tax criticism. The GOP going to bat for wealthy people is simply not good politics. I said this back in '11.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2012, 04:22 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
1,991 posts, read 3,398,899 times
Reputation: 891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
I am not wrong. The 401k is a direct government subsidy. It is government dependency. The government essentially sends out a check so you can save for retirement.
It is ONLY a temporary subsidy. Tax is only POSTPONED on the money- tax is not eliminated on the money. It is more like a government loan than it is a check. 401k legislation was bipartisan because Congress understood that incentives drive behavior and that if government gave incentives to save for retirement then that would take some pressure off Social Security by making it NOT the difference between the elderly having shelter vs being out on the street.

America saw what an epidemic of elderly homelessness looks like, and it's not a good look. And sitting back and preaching to Americans was not solving the problem. Incentives have to a large degree. The national debate today is more about elderly health care than it is elderly homelessness. And that is mainly because of the actions the government took to create Social Security and incentivize private retirement saving. So you as a nation either support incentivization or you accept retuning to a national elderly homelessness epidemic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2012, 04:39 AM
 
Location: Maryland
18,563 posts, read 15,774,500 times
Reputation: 6259
Quote:
Originally Posted by eRayP View Post
You are wrong about the dependency. The only way I depend on the government is when I depend on them to correctly process the check I was forced to write to them. A 401K is a form of saving money that was earned and putting it away for retirement. Not sure how owning a home makes me dependent on the government, no HUD loan or whatever you call it here. So no you are wrong. What is upsetting conservatives and republicans (at least those of us at the bottom) is we know that anytime the government wants to raise taxes they always hit us at the low end. We are tired of working our butts off only to be forced to give a chunk to the government before we get it.
She's right in the sense that the govt forgoes taxing your contributions to a 401k, how nice of them. Also just because you don't have a HUD home or loan does not mean you do not benefit from govt intervention in mortgage markets. The ability of banks to off load mortgages onto the FHA makes mortgages more available and cheaper to consumers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2012, 07:13 AM
 
121 posts, read 128,494 times
Reputation: 109
I'm asian-american and i've posted about this extensively but here are my thoughts:

1) Republicans claim to be fiscal conservatives but since I was old enough to remember prominent Republicans being in power like Reagan were all about massive deficit spending. Usually the budget went towards defense projects, pork barrel, and other shady financing activities. Ted Stevens is another example of how Repubs involve themselves in all sorts of malfeasance at the taxpayers expense. He bilked hundreds of millions of federal dollars into bridges to nowhere and other stuff in Alaska. That is pretty standard hypocritical behavior for the party.

2) Speaking of "gifts" Republicans always promise tax cuts..to the richest people in the U.S. who are *surprise surprise* the major lobbyists and election campaign donors. The middle class receives little benefit and it's a hat trick because while they promise tax cuts they are engaging in massive deficit spending and corporate cronyism see: defense, big pharmaceutical, infrastructure, etc..

3) Religious fundamentalism. The religious right who believes in things like the upcoming apocalypse, creationism, sexual politics, the divine right of supporting Israel, religious law, etc.. have attached themselves to the modern Republican party. When you replace rational thought with "faith" based beliefs then you are naturally diverging away from principles which form a first world modern society able to utilize logic and rationalism to solve problems or plan for the future. You end up with a society that is intolerant of other religions, science, progressive thought, etc.. It's inviting a dark age mentality into the 21st century.

4) Aggressive foreign policy. Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex and it seems that Republicans have embraced the whole concept of expansionist war and creating proxy commonwealths through actual military conflict. War enriches corporate lobbyists and defense contractors and who do they donate money to most of the time? ... Reagan involved himself in many shady south American conflicts as well. It's not surprising that the whole Republican neo-con movement was birthed from Reagan's administration and cabinet.

5) Racism. It started with Lee Atwater's racist political ideology with the southern strategy but its foundational roots are probably older than that. The whole concept is to dog whistle and create intense paranoia and distrust. The ideology behind it is that race divisions are a convenient way to split the lower and middle class vote and was probably started in earnest during the post civil war era to pit ethnicities against each other and break collective wage bargaining. Ultra wealthy elite classes turning lower and middle class citizens against each other for political gain is the oldest trick in the book. It's used in poor Banana Republics all the time which I feel that many wealthy Republicans probably secretly admire their colonial type wealth inequality. It's extremely harmful for American society especially if you constantly vilify and disenfranchise large portions of your own population.

Republicans deny the racism a lot when its endemic in the party. I can't even count the number of attack ads that depict minorities in seriously derogatory ways. This goes for blacks, asians, and hispanics.

6) Federal spending priorities. Whenever a Republican comes into power it seems the first thing they aggressively cut is any kind of education or health care program. Cutting into education is stupidity at its finest and typifies the sort of short sighted thinking that is symptomatic of the party. On the other hand the aforementioned pork barrel and defense spending seems to go wildly out of control during a Republican administration. Funny that. A nation that lags behind the other developed world countries in educating its population and developing professional skillsets will soon find itself in the "developing" category down the road. America's potential is limitless in creating this competitive, creative, and adaptive highly educated population but is instead hamstrung every time over politics.

Last edited by scubamaniac; 11-19-2012 at 07:51 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2012, 07:40 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
1,991 posts, read 3,398,899 times
Reputation: 891
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
The 401k is a direct government subsidy. It is government dependency. The government essentially sends out a check so you can save for retirement.
You pay taxes on 401(k) money when you withdraw it. It is not a subsidy in the traditional sense where taxes are foregone on it. Taxes are only DELAYED on it, but they are still ultimately paid. The temporary subsidy is ultimately withdrawn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
All the workers whose employers don't offer 401ks and there are 10's of millions of them don't get that government gift/giveaway.
They have access to another form of it- the IRA. And like the 401(k), taxes are only delayed on it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
the mortgage interest deduction is a huge government subsidy. It is government dependency.
It is a subsidy, but not government dependency. People don't not purchase a home based on the existence or non-existence of mortgage interest deduction. Canada has proven this to be true. People aren't depending on the government for that deduction or else they won't buy a house. Dependency is when behavior/decision-making is changed when subsidies are offered. If you can't/won't make the same choices without the subsidy- you are dependent on it. Like many of the corporate segments that get various tax deductions based on what industry they operate in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iamme73 View Post
This is what irks me the most. People's whose whole lives are sudsidized by the government essentially sending them a check that is denied to other tax payers getting upset at what other Americans get from the same government. It is astonishing the blindness the lack of knowledge.
That is a good point. Most everybody is getting some kind of cut from the government. Corporations get their tax subsidy cut. Defense contractors get their cut, and Republicans want them to get even more welfare- more of a cut when the military doesn't even need that much spending. People who take the mortgage interest deduction get their cut. People with children get their cut. Red states tend to get more federal money back than they contribute, ie. redistribution HELPS the bulk of red states. Yet it seems to mostly be red state voters and Republicans nationwide who get upset at the 47% getting something from the government, blind to their own government cut, and who get upset at the concept of wealth redistribution, blind to their state benefitting from wealth redistribution.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2012, 07:54 AM
 
47,316 posts, read 24,627,956 times
Reputation: 14468
Quote:
Originally Posted by eRayP View Post
You are wrong about the dependency. The only way I depend on the government is when I depend on them to correctly process the check I was forced to write to them. A 401K is a form of saving money that was earned and putting it away for retirement. Not sure how owning a home makes me dependent on the government, no HUD loan or whatever you call it here. So no you are wrong. What is upsetting conservatives and republicans (at least those of us at the bottom) is we know that anytime the government wants to raise taxes they always hit us at the low end. We are tired of working our butts off only to be forced to give a chunk to the government before we get it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamaniac View Post
I'm asian-american and i've posted about this extensively but here are my thoughts:

1) Republicans claim to be fiscal conservatives but since I was old enough to remember prominent Republicans being in power like Reagan were all about massive deficit spending. Usually the budget went towards defense projects, pork barrel, and other shady financing activities. Ted Stevens is another example of how Repubs involve themselves in all sorts of malfeasance at the taxpayers expense. He bilked hundreds of millions of federal dollars into bridges to nowhere and other stuff in Alaska. That is pretty standard hypocritical behavior for the party.

2) Speaking of "gifts" Republicans always promise tax cuts..to the richest people in the U.S. who are *surprise surprise* the major lobbyists and election campaign donors. The middle class receives little benefit and it's a hat trick because while they promise tax cuts they are engaging in massive deficit spending and corporate cronyism see: defense, big pharmaceutical, infrastructure, etc..

3) Religious fundamentalism. The religious right who believes in things like the upcoming apocalypse, creationism, sexual politics, the divine right of supporting Israel, religious law, etc.. have attached themselves to the modern Republican party. When you replace rational thought with "faith" based beliefs then you are naturally diverging away from principles which form a first world modern society able to utilize logic and rationalism to solve problems or plan for the future. You end up with a society that is intolerant of other religions, science, progressive thought, etc.. It's inviting a dark age mentality into the 21st century.

4) Aggressive foreign policy. Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex and it seems that Republicans have embraced the whole concept of expansionist war and creating proxy commonwealths through actual military conflict. War enriches corporate lobbyists and defense contractors and who do they donate money to most of the time? ... Reagan involved himself in many shady south American conflicts as well. It's not surprising that the whole Republican neo-con movement was birthed from Reagan's administration and cabinet.

5) Racism. It started with Lee Atwater's racist political ideology with the southern strategy but its foundational roots are probably older than that. The whole concept is to dog whistle and create intense paranoia and distrust. The ideology behind it is that race divisions are a convenient way to split the lower and middle class vote and was probably started in earnest during the post civil war era to pit ethnicities against each other and break collective wage bargaining. Ultra wealthy elite classes turning lower and middle class citizens against each other for political gain is the oldest trick in the book. It's used in poor Banana Republics all the time which I feel that many wealthy Republicans probably secretly admire for their colonial type wealth inequality. It's extremely harmful for American society especially if you constantly vilify and disenfranchise large portions of your own population.

Republicans deny the racism a lot and its endemic in the party. I can't even count the number of attack ads that depict minorities in seriously derogatory ways. This goes for blacks, asians, and hispanics.

6) Federal spending priorities. Whenever a Republican comes into power it seems the first thing they aggressively cut is any kind of education or health care program. Cutting into education is stupidity at its finest and typifies the sort of short sighted thinking that is symptomatic of the party. On the other hand the aforementioned pork barrel and defense spending seems to go wildly out of control during a Republican administration. Funny that. A nation that lags behind the other developed world countries in educating its population and developing professional skillsets will soon find itself in the "developing" category down the road. America's potential is limitless in creating this competitive, creative, and adaptive highly educated population but is instead hamstrung every time over politics.
All great points!

I just keep wondering...why have they moved so far from Eisenhower when he was clearly one of the great presidents of our time and presided over a nation that was at the height of its powers? I'm not fond of America in the 50's (not as a black man), but the prosperity and stability of the country at the time is undeniable.

Ike made it very clear that defense dollars, although necessary up to a point, were a poor investment and should be limited in their expenditures. And my God, this was during the COLD WAR!!!!

Hell, I work in the defense establishment, and I'm even ashamed at what we spend. We're spending 5 or 6 times what the Chinese spend, and then say that "we can't just throw money at the problem" when it comes to education? What kinda sh*t is that to say?

The Republicans have some good ideas. Obamacare has more conservatism at its core than Liberalism, but they hate the man so much, that they can't even acknowledge it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2012, 08:15 AM
 
519 posts, read 327,852 times
Reputation: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertdetroiter View Post
All great points!

I just keep wondering...why have they moved so far from Eisenhower when he was clearly one of the great presidents of our time and presided over a nation that was at the height of its powers? I'm not fond of America in the 50's (not as a black man), but the prosperity and stability of the country at the time is undeniable.

Ike made it very clear that defense dollars, although necessary up to a point, were a poor investment and should be limited in their expenditures. And my God, this was during the COLD WAR!!!!

Hell, I work in the defense establishment, and I'm even ashamed at what we spend. We're spending 5 or 6 times what the Chinese spend, and then say that "we can't just throw money at the problem" when it comes to education? What kinda sh*t is that to say?

The Republicans have some good ideas. Obamacare has more conservatism at its core than Liberalism, but they hate the man so much, that they can't even acknowledge it.
Excellent stuff.

Indeed, Obamacare had things that Republicans actually had proposed in the past; they just didn't want Obama to take credit for bipartisanship. It's hard to be bipartisan when Obama has to work with the modern equivalent of radical Republicanism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-19-2012, 08:16 AM
 
519 posts, read 327,852 times
Reputation: 215
Quote:
Originally Posted by scubamaniac View Post
I'm asian-american and i've posted about this extensively but here are my thoughts:

1) Republicans claim to be fiscal conservatives but since I was old enough to remember prominent Republicans being in power like Reagan were all about massive deficit spending. Usually the budget went towards defense projects, pork barrel, and other shady financing activities. Ted Stevens is another example of how Repubs involve themselves in all sorts of malfeasance at the taxpayers expense. He bilked hundreds of millions of federal dollars into bridges to nowhere and other stuff in Alaska. That is pretty standard hypocritical behavior for the party.

2) Speaking of "gifts" Republicans always promise tax cuts..to the richest people in the U.S. who are *surprise surprise* the major lobbyists and election campaign donors. The middle class receives little benefit and it's a hat trick because while they promise tax cuts they are engaging in massive deficit spending and corporate cronyism see: defense, big pharmaceutical, infrastructure, etc..

3) Religious fundamentalism. The religious right who believes in things like the upcoming apocalypse, creationism, sexual politics, the divine right of supporting Israel, religious law, etc.. have attached themselves to the modern Republican party. When you replace rational thought with "faith" based beliefs then you are naturally diverging away from principles which form a first world modern society able to utilize logic and rationalism to solve problems or plan for the future. You end up with a society that is intolerant of other religions, science, progressive thought, etc.. It's inviting a dark age mentality into the 21st century.

4) Aggressive foreign policy. Eisenhower warned us about the military industrial complex and it seems that Republicans have embraced the whole concept of expansionist war and creating proxy commonwealths through actual military conflict. War enriches corporate lobbyists and defense contractors and who do they donate money to most of the time? ... Reagan involved himself in many shady south American conflicts as well. It's not surprising that the whole Republican neo-con movement was birthed from Reagan's administration and cabinet.

5) Racism. It started with Lee Atwater's racist political ideology with the southern strategy but its foundational roots are probably older than that. The whole concept is to dog whistle and create intense paranoia and distrust. The ideology behind it is that race divisions are a convenient way to split the lower and middle class vote and was probably started in earnest during the post civil war era to pit ethnicities against each other and break collective wage bargaining. Ultra wealthy elite classes turning lower and middle class citizens against each other for political gain is the oldest trick in the book. It's used in poor Banana Republics all the time which I feel that many wealthy Republicans probably secretly admire their colonial type wealth inequality. It's extremely harmful for American society especially if you constantly vilify and disenfranchise large portions of your own population.

Republicans deny the racism a lot when its endemic in the party. I can't even count the number of attack ads that depict minorities in seriously derogatory ways. This goes for blacks, asians, and hispanics.

6) Federal spending priorities. Whenever a Republican comes into power it seems the first thing they aggressively cut is any kind of education or health care program. Cutting into education is stupidity at its finest and typifies the sort of short sighted thinking that is symptomatic of the party. On the other hand the aforementioned pork barrel and defense spending seems to go wildly out of control during a Republican administration. Funny that. A nation that lags behind the other developed world countries in educating its population and developing professional skillsets will soon find itself in the "developing" category down the road. America's potential is limitless in creating this competitive, creative, and adaptive highly educated population but is instead hamstrung every time over politics.
This.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies > Elections
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top