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We need to fix this, because the two parties we have in power right now are damaged beyond repair.
Well it starts with local elections, start voting in third parties that you are passionate for at the local and regional level and work up from there. You aren't going to ever see a third party in control of the country if they can't take control of a city or state.
In political science, Duverger's law is a principle that asserts that plurality rule elections structured within single-member districts tend to favor a two-party system. This is one of two hypotheses proposed by Duverger, the second stating that "the double ballot majority system and proportional representation tend to multipartism."
The discovery of this tendency is attributed to Maurice Duverger, a French sociologist who observed the effect and recorded it in several papers published in the 1950s and 1960s. In the course of further research, other political scientists began calling the effect a "law" or principle. Duverger's law suggests a nexus or synthesis between a party system and an electoral system: a proportional representation (PR) system creates the electoral conditions necessary to foster party development while a plurality system marginalizes many smaller political parties, resulting in what is known as a two-party system.
The idea that some other party will, upon obtaining major-party status, behave differently than either of the two current major parties is hopelessly naive. If the problem is behavior (and it is) the solution is to change that behavior, not to cling to the idea that if we just try a party with a different name, it will act differently.
I think this should be something that we can all agree on...whether you are a Libertarian or not.
That is where you are mistaken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AZcardinal402
I think it is a great thing that Richard Sarvis in Virgina is polling at 10%. VA is a major political state and it is a great thing that a third party candidate is polling so well there. Granted, Sarvis is going to cause the guy from my party to lose...I still think it is a great thing for national politics. Hypothetically...If a strong Green Party candidate also existed in Virginia...this could end up being a historically close race with for a major Governer's seat.
Maybe others won't feel the same way, but I think it's pretty awesome that the Libertarian Party has consistently polled over 10% and I hope it is telling of their upcoming successes.
And to show my objectivity...I would feel the same way if the Green Party, or the Socialist Party, or the Constitution Party, or the Whoever party did well also......It would be a great thing to see a few more choices out there.
Since their inception in 1971, not a single Libertarian candidate has ever received more than 1% of the popular vote. Ironically, John Hospers (the Libertarian candidate in 1972) did receive one Electoral College vote, but absolutely zero popular votes since he was not on any ballot in any State.
There will never be a strong third party in the US. The labels have changed, but since its inception the US has always been divided by the federalists and the anti-federalists, Hamilton vs. Jefferson. Washington was a federalist, which is why Jefferson resigned from his cabinet. Adams was also a federalist. Jefferson, Madison, and Monroe were all anti-federalists.
Democrats are federalists, and the Republicans are the anti-federalists. Everyone else either gets consumed by one ideology or the other, or completely marginalized (as in the Libertarian Party among others).
With a congressional form of government there can only be two primary ideologies which boils down to liberty (anti-federalist) vs. anti-liberty (federalist). With a parliamentary form of government there can be multiple different political factions, none with a true majority yet all vying for they same piece of pie.
There has been similar success in the past, and other candidates have won, mostly running as an Independent as opposed to Libertarian. As others have mentioned I think you need to wait to see the final results before jumping to any conclusions due to the fact third party candidates have often polled higher than the final vote tally. Also, some of it could be due to the candidates themselves as opposed to any 3rd party surge. McAuliffe tends to be thought of as too much of a party and Washington insider, and Cuccinelli is just bats*** crazy.
That isn't to say we might not see stronger 3rd party success in the future, we could especially with both parties continued to be viewed in a more negative light. However, we do not yet know what Starvis is going to wind up getting and there are other factors at play in this race.
We need to fix this, because the two parties we have in power right now are damaged beyond repair.
No they're not.
One party is in bad shape, but the other is not. And the one that is in bad shape isn't in the same bad shape everywhere.
Try to be a little realistic. A third party isn't going to rise and save us all, ever. Our system makes such a thing impossible. Single independent candidates win a few elections once in a while, and that is the best any 3rd party will ever do.
There has been similar success in the past, and other candidates have won, mostly running as an Independent as opposed to Libertarian. As others have mentioned I think you need to wait to see the final results before jumping to any conclusions due to the fact third party candidates have often polled higher than the final vote tally. Also, some of it could be due to the candidates themselves as opposed to any 3rd party surge. McAuliffe tends to be thought of as too much of a party and Washington insider, and Cuccinelli is just bats*** crazy.
That isn't to say we might not see stronger 3rd party success in the future, we could especially with both parties continued to be viewed in a more negative light. However, we do not yet know what Starvis is going to wind up getting and there are other factors at play in this race.
A 3rd party isn't going to have any real chance or influence unless we change our electoral system. The USA has a "winner-take all" system - which favors the two major political parties and shuts out any minor parties. The Electoral College is based on this, too.
To make 3rd parties viable - we would have to
1) scrap the electoral college system (which is a winner take all in terms of getting votes)
2) institute a proportional representation system - such as what they have in some European countries, such as Germany, France In these countries the parties tend to be more fractured, and coalitions between parties must be formed to produce a working government. This does have its tradeoffs in terms of political instability.
Where would the political will for this change come from in the USA?
A 3rd party isn't going to have any real chance or influence unless we change our electoral system. The USA has a "winner-take all" system - which favors the two major political parties and shuts out any minor parties. The Electoral College is based on this, too.
To make 3rd parties viable - we would have to
1) scrap the electoral college system (which is a winner take all in terms of getting votes)
2) institute a proportional representation system - such as what they have in some European countries, such as Germany, France In these countries the parties tend to be more fractured, and coalitions between parties must be formed to produce a working government. This does have its tradeoffs in terms of political instability.
Where would the political will for this change come from in the USA?
Nebraska and Maine already split their Electoral College votes based upon popular vote. It is up to each State legislature to determine how they will determine their Electoral College votes, not the Electoral College "system."
There is not a chance in Hell that any State will voluntarily ratify any amendment that seeks to abolish the Electoral College. They would be slitting their own throats.
We had proportional representation, until Congress enacted the Apportionment Act of 1911.
We need to fix this, because the two parties we have in power right now are damaged beyond repair.
They have been for some time. They're co-opted and generally reading from the same playbook. It's a game of thesis + antithesis = synthesis, or Hegelian dialectic process.
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"everybody getting reported now.."
(set 22 days ago)
Location: Pine Grove,AL
29,550 posts, read 16,539,320 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm
its not common per say, but it does happen i various places in the country. for instance there are two independents in the senate, though they tend to caucus with the democrats. right now green party candidates are too far left for democrats, which is why their party doesnt poll well, but there are some in elected office around the country, same with libertarians and independents. but overall they are a handful compared to republicans and democrats.
in the end one of two things is going to happen, the republican party is going to become such a pariah that people will leave in droves and start a third party, thats what happened to the whig party in the 1850s, that will ultimately replace the republican party. or two, the republican party will remake itself and come out stronger in either 2014 or 2016. either way its oddly enough the democrats that will force those scenarios on the country.
There are currently
145 elected Libertarian Party Members(0 state wide or Legislature members)
133 elected Green Party members(0 state wide, 1 state Representative)
5 elected Constitutional Party members ( 0 state wide of Legislative members)
the total for Other 3rd parties who have elected officials 216(does NOT include independents)
The elected positions are School boards, City councilmen , City Treasurer, and so on.
I think there are far more than 2 choices there. There is a possibility of the party staying together and being weak.
Status:
"everybody getting reported now.."
(set 22 days ago)
Location: Pine Grove,AL
29,550 posts, read 16,539,320 times
Reputation: 6033
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris
A 3rd party isn't going to have any real chance or influence unless we change our electoral system. The USA has a "winner-take all" system - which favors the two major political parties and shuts out any minor parties. The Electoral College is based on this, too.
To make 3rd parties viable - we would have to
1) scrap the electoral college system (which is a winner take all in terms of getting votes)
2) institute a proportional representation system - such as what they have in some European countries, such as Germany, France In these countries the parties tend to be more fractured, and coalitions between parties must be formed to produce a working government. This does have its tradeoffs in terms of political instability.
Where would the political will for this change come from in the USA?
Your argument about the electoral college doesnt really make sense, by which I mean you did not actually explain why winner take all is hurting 3rd parties.
How exactly would a proportional system work. I honestly dont get it. I mean, i know that a proportion of the vote equals the number of seats you get, but i dont understand how people would be chosen to fill those seats. Are we simply going to vote for a Party and then have the party members pick who serves in congress ? that doesnt seem right to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glitch
We had proportional representation, until Congress enacted the Apportionment Act of 1911.
No we didnt.
The act you speak of simply capped the number of representatives and used another method of measurement to insure state's populations were accurately counted for representation.
we did not have proportional representation before that.
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