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Old 04-04-2015, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
18,235 posts, read 8,216,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Which actually validates Ben Carsons comment

Which again, would validate his statement as true... Given limited access

So you've been arguing they aren't gay, but now admit they are, because they have no beak but pounding each other hard.
Most people, and I am one of them, took Carson's comment to mean that prison experiences can change a person's basic sexual orientation, as the words "come out" are associated with a gay person's decision to go public.

So no, Carson's statement that prison homosexual sex changes a heterosexual man into a homosexual one is counterfactual. And the same thing goes, of course, for women prisoners.

AFAIK, Carson has not clarified whether he meant something different.
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Old 04-04-2015, 10:31 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
Most people, and I am one of them, took Carson's comment to mean that prison experiences can change a person's basic sexual orientation, as the words "come out" are associated with a gay person's decision to go public.

So no, Carson's statement that prison homosexual sex changes a heterosexual man into a homosexual one is counterfactual. And the same thing goes, of course, for women prisoners.

AFAIK, Carson has not clarified whether he meant something different.
Ben Carlson said they come out of PRISON gay, not out of the closet.. they arent in the public so to conclude he meant the decision to go public is ridiculous.

"a lot of people ... go into prison straight -- and when they come out, they're gay."

There are a lot of gay people who don't make it known to others, that doesn't mean they aren't gay.
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Old 04-04-2015, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Ben Carlson said they come out of PRISON gay, not out of the closet.. they arent in the public so to conclude he meant the decision to go public is ridiculous.
And that isn't what I meant, but I guess either I wasn't clear enough or that you misunderstood me. Doesn't actually matter, because...


Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
"a lot of people ... go into prison straight -- and when they come out, they're gay."
OK, using your connotation rather than mine, he is still saying that prison changes a person's basic sexual orientation. Which, to be perfectly clear, is just plain silly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
There are a lot of gay people who don't make it known to others, that doesn't mean they aren't gay.
Obviously.
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Old 04-04-2015, 12:15 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
OK, using your connotation rather than mine, he is still saying that prison changes a person's basic sexual orientation. Which, to be perfectly clear, is just plain silly.
So then this would conclude you to believe that everyone in prison, who conducts gay sexual acts was gay before they went to prison, which is even sillier because this would mean that gays either commit more crimes than straights, which of course is nonsense, or they are dumber, and get caught more, which is even more ridiculous.

There are only 2 options available..
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Old 04-04-2015, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
So then this would conclude you to believe that everyone in prison, who conducts gay sexual acts was gay before they went to prison, which is even sillier because this would mean that gays either commit more crimes than straights, which of course is nonsense, or they are dumber, and get caught more, which is even more ridiculous.

There are only 2 options available..
No need to strain yourself to come up with such absurd interpretations of what I said.

Here we have our heterosexual felon, headed to prison for x years. But, maybe when it comes down to it, s/he likes sex with another person more than s/he likes DIY sex. Maybe s/he gets emotionally close to another felon, maybe it's any port in a storm. Or maybe her/his preferences don't enter into the equation, maybe s/he is coerced. For purposes of our discussion, it doesn't matter. S/he engages in one or more same-sex relationships in prison.

Our felon is released. If s/he was straight before s/he went to prison, is s/he now necessarily gay? I say no. Carson says yes. That's it.
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Old 04-04-2015, 02:13 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
No need to strain yourself to come up with such absurd interpretations of what I said.

Here we have our heterosexual felon, headed to prison for x years. But, maybe when it comes down to it, s/he likes sex with another person more than s/he likes DIY sex. Maybe s/he gets emotionally close to another felon, maybe it's any port in a storm. Or maybe her/his preferences don't enter into the equation, maybe s/he is coerced. For purposes of our discussion, it doesn't matter. S/he engages in one or more same-sex relationships in prison.

Our felon is released. If s/he was straight before s/he went to prison, is s/he now necessarily gay? I say no. Carson says yes. That's it.
Were they or were they not gay, during their times of incarceration given ANY of the examples above?

yes, yes they were.
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Old 04-04-2015, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
Were they or were they not gay, during their times of incarceration given ANY of the examples above?

yes, yes they were.
Depends on your definition of gay, I suppose, or on your concept of what desire means. My guess is that most gay people have had straight sex, but that doesn't mean they "came out" straight.

Do you really think that people never have sex with people they don't really desire? You know little about sexual behavior if you think that.
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Old 04-04-2015, 02:29 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 55,497,483 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
Depends on your definition of gay, I suppose, or on your concept of what desire means. My guess is that most gay people have had straight sex, but that doesn't mean they "came out" straight.

Do you really think that people never have sex with people they don't really desire? You know little about sexual behavior if you think that.
If someone can come out of prison and then "choose" to no longer be gay, wouldn't this then back up the argument I stated earlier which is some people are gay naturally, while others choose to be?

Because clearly, some who go to and have gay sex, weren't gay prior to their incarceration.
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Old 04-04-2015, 02:38 PM
 
Location: Old Hippie Heaven
18,235 posts, read 8,216,730 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest View Post
If someone can come out of prison and then "choose" to no longer be gay, wouldn't this then back up the argument I stated earlier which is some people are gay naturally, while others choose to be?
There again, it depends on what you mean by gay. If you think that a person is gay or straight as determined by who their current sex partner is, that's one thing.

It's another thing to think, as I do, that a straight person may choose to have gay sex, or a gay person may choose to have straight sex, but in either case, that circumstance does not affect their underlying orientation.

If gay/straight nature is as flexible and situation-dependent as you suggest, then it becomes even more puzzling why so many people have such a negative visceral reaction to the idea of gay people, and why there are so many rants about god's intentions.

Last edited by jacqueg; 04-04-2015 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 04-04-2015, 03:02 PM
 
69,372 posts, read 55,497,483 times
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Originally Posted by jacqueg View Post
There again, it depends on what you mean by gay. If you think that a person is gay or straight as determined by who their most recent sex partner was, that's one thing.

It's another thing to think, as I do, that a straight person may choose to have gay sex, or a gay person may choose to have straight sex, but in either case, that circumstance does not affect their underlying orientation.

If gay/straight nature is as flexible and situation-dependent as you suggest, then it becomes even more puzzling why so many people have such a negative visceral reaction to the idea of gay people, and why there are so many rants about god's intentions.
Gay: of, relating to, or exhibiting sexual desire or behavior directed toward a person or persons of one's own sex

having sex with someone of the same sex, is a behavior, is it not?
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