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Old 04-15-2015, 04:38 PM
 
231 posts, read 295,390 times
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I swear, "ethnic loyalties" in politics are incredibly frustrating for me and if they didn't exist and people actually voted for the ideology they believe in the red/blue map would look mad different.

I'm of Italian descent and both my parents were born to immigrants. They are religious Catholics, socially conservative, pro-life, pro-gun, dislike high taxes, support Israel and supported the Iraqi and Afghan military campaigns, disagree with unions and basically have views that mirror a moderate GOP platform. However they are dedicated Democrats and blindly select (D) when voting. I got into it with them and asked why they support a party that essentially is the opposite of their views. The answer is "well that's the Catholic party" or "why would an Italian vote republican, that's ridiculous?"

I try and explain to them that maybe in the 60s/70s and even 80s that was true, now the Democratic party doesn't represent "Catholics" or "Italian Americans". I have heard this crapola from a lot of people especially boomers or older Gen Xers (my parents are in their mid/late 40s) especially amongst the white Catholic ethnic groups like Italian, Polish, Irish and also with Jews who think it's just preposterous for someone of their background to vote GOP.

Of course it isn't all people of these ethnic groups because two of NY's GOP representatives come from Staten Island and the Italian parts of Long Island but I feel like this sentiment is definitely widespread. I also see it amongst ethnic minorities like Hispanics and blacks who seem to be religious and seemingly at odds with the Democratic social issues platform (although perhaps they are fiscal leftists). I definitely think our political map would look different if people voted for what they actually believe instead of holding on to outdated ethnic loyalties that have not be relevant since Nixon. NY, NJ, CT, PA, MA, and RI would at least be purple states with their large numbers of socially conservative Catholic ethnic groups who vote democratic because of outdated ideas of what group represents Catholics or their ancestry. I could see this changing as older people start dying off and ethnic ties to the old country become less important but kids tend to vote the same way their parents did and these parties have such a stranglehold on their respective states that it will be hard to make a breakthrough.


Thoughts? Opinions?
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Old 04-15-2015, 04:53 PM
 
9,984 posts, read 6,758,066 times
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From what I've seen, this type of automatic Democrat voting among Italians, Irish, Catholics,
died out with the generation of the Great Depression/WW II. There is no doubt that most Catholics
voted Democrat, but since the 1970s, it's gone the other way, except for some of that particular
generation (mostly all gone now) who just didn't have open minds politically.
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Old 04-15-2015, 05:05 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,289 posts, read 7,955,579 times
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My hispanic nother in law does something similar. She just follows the recomended voting guide from the police union. I tried to explain the differences between the police union and the actually police officers and how many regular police officers don't actually support the politics of the union.

She just says that is what police officers think are best and does a strait ticket vote modeling their approved candidates. Makes me want to bang my head against the wall.

My side of the family does the same thing, but with trade unions. They think the union finds them jobs, but the politicians they vote for restrict growth, which in turn decreases work.
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Old 04-15-2015, 05:13 PM
 
231 posts, read 295,390 times
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I still see it a lot here in New York with people as young as 40
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Old 04-15-2015, 05:18 PM
 
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I grew up in Pittsburgh PA, as of the mid 1980's it at least seemed as if the town was still 65%+ Roman Catholic. And they voted 90%+ Democrat. Now I have been gone for 30 years, my family knows I am conservative. In both the 2012 and 2014 elections I had elder relatives calling me either in tears or to taunt my conservatism. They did this by citing mailers they got from the Allegheny County Democrat party. The example from 2014 that I have mentioned numerous times was as follows:

Vote for the only true party that will stop gay marriage
Vote for the only true party that will keep drugs illegal
Vote for the only true party that will keep abortion restrictions

Vote Democrat November 2014

And my relatives could not understand how I could be a republican and by extension be for gay marriage and legalized pot and abortion on demand when I was brought up Catholic.

Essentially in the western half of PA the Dems blanket the media basically running on GOP values to keep the Catholic vote.

I remember when my dad was a union official in the mid 1980's and the Dem officials would make their rounds to gain union endorsements and happily promised NO ATTEMPT WHATSOEVER at gun control in exchange for those endorsements.
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Old 04-15-2015, 05:27 PM
 
231 posts, read 295,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by armourereric View Post
I grew up in Pittsburgh PA, as of the mid 1980's it at least seemed as if the town was still 65%+ Roman Catholic. And they voted 90%+ Democrat. Now I have been gone for 30 years, my family knows I am conservative. In both the 2012 and 2014 elections I had elder relatives calling me either in tears or to taunt my conservatism. They did this by citing mailers they got from the Allegheny County Democrat party. The example from 2014 that I have mentioned numerous times was as follows:

Vote for the only true party that will stop gay marriage
Vote for the only true party that will keep drugs illegal
Vote for the only true party that will keep abortion restrictions

Vote Democrat November 2014

And my relatives could not understand how I could be a republican and by extension be for gay marriage and legalized pot and abortion on demand when I was brought up Catholic.

Essentially in the western half of PA the Dems blanket the media basically running on GOP values to keep the Catholic vote.

I remember when my dad was a union official in the mid 1980's and the Dem officials would make their rounds to gain union endorsements and happily promised NO ATTEMPT WHATSOEVER at gun control in exchange for those endorsements.
*sigh* I see the same crap. The political landscape of this country would be soo much different if it wasn't for low info voters who believe what party mailers say and don't actually pay attention to how the people they elect essentially vote for the opposite of what they believe. It is enough to get me to bang my head against the wall.
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Old 04-15-2015, 05:30 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,289 posts, read 7,955,579 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SIJ95 View Post
*sigh* I see the same crap. The political landscape of this country would be soo much different if it wasn't for low info voters who believe what party mailers say and don't actually pay attention to how the people they elect essentially vote for the opposite of what they believe. It is enough to get me to bang my head against the wall.
Yep, this is why I hate the get out the vote campaigns. If you have to convince someone to vote, that means they have no idea what is going on and they should not vote.

I wish party affiliation was removed from the ballot, only the candidates name in random order, nothing else.
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Old 04-15-2015, 05:55 PM
 
231 posts, read 295,390 times
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Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
Yep, this is why I hate the get out the vote campaigns. If you have to convince someone to vote, that means they have no idea what is going on and they should not vote.

I wish party affiliation was removed from the ballot, only the candidates name in random order, nothing else.
Exactly! The people who care are not the ones who need to be instructed to vote. "Get out and vote" campaigns are 99% Democratic tactics to appeal to low info voters. I have only seen a GOP "go vote" campaign once and it was in 2008 by a Puerto Rican singer directed at Latino people in the tri-state area.


I am registered GOP for the primaries, and I will admit I mostly vote (R) down the line, because it's usually GOP candidates who represent my views. But I don't have an issue voting Democratic if I feel that the candidate represents me, and I have voted Democratic for local positions like Borough President in Staten Island, just because we have had a "New York Conservative Party" Borough President for decades and it's essentially a dynasty of one family and I don't like nepotism/corruption/machine politics. The party affiliation should definitely be removed from the ballot, didn't George Washington warn us about Party Politics?
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Old 04-15-2015, 06:08 PM
 
Location: Pluto's Home Town
9,995 posts, read 11,668,990 times
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Since our parents presided over the greatest expansion in American economic, military, educational, intellectual, scientific, and infrastructural achievement in our country's history, it might be worth considering whether their views are sound. The democratic party was in power during this explosive expansion in virtually everything it means to be a modern American.

Modern conservatives have presided over a period of income and opportunity stratification, crumbling of the achievements of their parents, furthering of lick up and kick down social policies, the explosive expansion of anti-intellectual dogma, fiscal insolvency, greed and selfishness as virtues, the decline of the middle class, and erosion of our scientific, infrastructural, and economic superiority. They did it in a generation, showing to all but the most brainwashed their ideas hold no promise.

I think the early to mid century Irish, Italians, Poles, and other diehard ethnic and blue collar democrats championed the rise of the middle class and the emergence of America as a multifaceted superpower. They have nothing to be ashamed of. You neoconservatives might want to give that some thought.

They did a hell of a lot more to make this country great than you have. Compare 1950-1980 with 1980-2010. I think they look better and better with each passing year.
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Old 04-15-2015, 06:24 PM
 
231 posts, read 295,390 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
Since our parents presided over the greatest expansion in American economic, military, educational, intellectual, scientific, and infrastructural achievement in our country's history, it might be worth considering whether their views are sound. The democratic party was in power during this explosive expansion in virtually everything it means to be a modern American.

Modern onservatives have presided over a period of income on opportunity stratification, crumbling of the achievements of their parents, lick up and kick down social policies, the explosive expansion of anti-intellectual dogma, fiscal insolvency, the decline of the middle class, and erosion of our scientific, infrastructural, and economic superiority.

I think the early to mid century Irish, Italians, Poles, and other diehard ethnic and blue collar democrats championed the rise of the middle class and the emergence of America as multifaceted superpower. They have nothing to be ashamed of. You neoconservatives might want to give that some thought. They did a hell of a lot more to make this country great than you have. Compare 1950-1980 with 1980-2010. I think they look better and better with each passing year.
I have absolutely no problem with people voting for their beliefs. This is a democracy and if the majority of Americans agree with the current political platform of the Democratic Party then that's that. However if a person is anti gun control, anti gay marriage, a Zionist, a believer in hawkish foreign policy, and strongly pro-life, does it make sense for them to vote Democrat? You've made it clear where you stand which is fine and I am sure you do not mind people voting democratic, but does it make any sense for them to vote for a party who has a platform that does not represent their views?


This isn't the Politics forum, it's the Elections forum. I was discussing an electoral issue, I was not trying to get into a pissing contest. I would have the same opinions and the tables were flipped and we had a bunch of socially liberal, pro-choice, anti-tradition, pacifist foreign policy believing people voting for the GOP because of some sense of loyalty or tradition.

Do you understand what I am saying? Also please do keep in mind that the platforms of both parties have changed drastically since the Lyndon Johnsok administration and even moreso since the Nixon and Reagan campaigns and the "Southern Strategy", the political landscape of today bares no resemblance to the landscape of the time of the greatest generation/baby boomers. For instance, the Democratic party was synonymous with conservative southern politics and segregation. Robert Byrd was a high ranking KKK member and the Democratic Senator for West Virginia, similarly Jesse Helms, Strom Thurmond, and George Wallace were all Democrats and President Eisenhower was a republican even though on many issues he was a liberal for his time.


Do you support low information voting just for the sake of furthering your own ideological stance? Or do you believe in true democracy where the government represents the values of the voting populace regardless on if you disagree with the current administration?
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