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Old 02-22-2016, 12:35 PM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,955,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graceC View Post
He is that, but much like Ted Cruz, Bernie over promises and he knows it, even if his supporters don't. Given the climate with the Congress right now, I don't see how he'll be able to accomplish any of them.
But he doesnt promise anything. He routinely says a president wont get anything done. What he talks about are ambitions and aspirations and what he will fight for once in office, just like how he has been one of the most effective Congressmen in DC. What we in effect are saying when we talk about "getting stuff done" is that we must vote for someone who the puppets in Congress funded by the corporate elites find palatable. We must bow to the demands of the economic royalists and billionaires who control Congress. If we dont, they will throw a tantrum. Wake up, they are 0.01% of the voters. The majority of the people are social democrats/New Dealers like Sanders and support his agenda. Thats just the reality according to polls, no matter how many times Time Warner Corporation/CNN and Comcast try to convince (their mostly older) audience otherwise.
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,998 posts, read 12,924,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by graceC View Post
He is that, but much like Ted Cruz, Bernie over promises and he knows it, even if his supporters don't. Given the climate with the Congress right now, I don't see how he'll be able to accomplish any of them.
I don't disagree, but there is something to be said for "the art of negotiation".

You don't start in the middle, or you get nothing. Start at the top, and you'll get a compromise.
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:37 PM
 
79,913 posts, read 44,167,332 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ringo1 View Post
Promise Scholarship is very different from 'free college'.
How so? You get to go to an in state college for no charge. It's very popular.
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:42 PM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,955,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
Except this is an opinion, not a fact.



Not really. I think he's reasonably honest, but I also think he's a politician and has been politically expedient when it suits him.

He claims credit when it's not due, like saying he helped write the Affordable Care Act
Bernie Sanders exaggerates with claim that he helped write Obamacare | PolitiFact

Claiming he's been in favor of same sex marriage for decades when the reality is that he didn't speak out in favor until 2009 and at least as recently as 2006, was opposed to SSM in favor of civil unions.

Bernie Sanders: Gay Marriage Record Not as Simple As He Says

And his lack of integrity with campaign ads and mailings, claiming and/or implying endorsements he hadn't received.

So no, bottom line is that I do not agree with your OPINION that Bernie has more integrity and is more honest.
That's funny. You use politifact to prove he is dishonest, and you talk about gay marriage, yet politifact says this:

"Bernie Sanders was there when it came to (same-sex) marriage 20 years ago. ... He was there when it wasn't popular."

NBC's Chuck Todd: Bernie Sanders was 'there' on same-sex marriage 20 years ago | PunditFact
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,998 posts, read 12,924,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
Except this is an opinion, not a fact.



Not really. I think he's reasonably honest, but I also think he's a politician and has been politically expedient when it suits him.
Please don't tell me you think the same can't be said for Hillary Clinton. They're politicians, it's what they do. Hillary is just blatantly worse IMO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
He claims credit when it's not due, like saying he helped write the Affordable Care Act
Bernie Sanders exaggerates with claim that he helped write Obamacare | PolitiFact

Claiming he's been in favor of same sex marriage for decades when the reality is that he didn't speak out in favor until 2009 and at least as recently as 2006, was opposed to SSM in favor of civil unions.

Bernie Sanders: Gay Marriage Record Not as Simple As He Says

And his lack of integrity with campaign ads and mailings, claiming and/or implying endorsements he hadn't received.

So no, bottom line is that I do not agree with your OPINION that Bernie has more integrity and is more honest.
Well, I disagree. Clinton has changed her mind on much more important matters-NAFTA, Iraq War, Yes-Gay Marriage, Mass Incarceration, etc. I don't see the difference quite honestly.

The issues that matter to me-Bernie has been much more consistent being Anti-War, Anti-Wall Street corruption, Anti-Colluded and Destructive Free Trade Deals, Anti-Mass Incarceration, etc.

He stood up for the same issues and stood alone, even when it wasn't popular.

Clinton will (and has) said anything to get elected. She was campaigning FOR single payer health care against Obama yet criticizes Sanders for it a few years later.

Just don't be surprised when the same status-quo policies continue under Hillary. OBushMa was bad enough from 2000-2016, but people want more of the same? Again, it's literal insanity.
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:46 PM
 
Location: Denver CO
24,204 posts, read 19,191,156 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCALMike View Post
That's funny. You use politifact to prove he is dishonest, and you talk about gay marriage, yet politifact says this:

"Bernie Sanders was there when it came to (same-sex) marriage 20 years ago. ... He was there when it wasn't popular."

NBC's Chuck Todd: Bernie Sanders was 'there' on same-sex marriage 20 years ago | PunditFact
Punditfact is not Politifact. And Chuck Todd repeating a Sanders talking point doesn't make it true.
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:50 PM
 
Location: Denver CO
24,204 posts, read 19,191,156 times
Reputation: 38266
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
Please don't tell me you think the same can't be said for Hillary Clinton. They're politicians, it's what they do. Hillary is just blatantly worse IMO.



Well, I disagree. Clinton has changed her mind on much more important matters-NAFTA, Iraq War, Yes-Gay Marriage, Mass Incarceration, etc. I don't see the difference quite honestly.

The issues that matter to me-Bernie has been much more consistent being Anti-War, Anti-Wall Street corruption, Anti-Colluded and Destructive Free Trade Deals, Anti-Mass Incarceration, etc.

He stood up for the same issues and stood alone, even when it wasn't popular.

Clinton will (and has) said anything to get elected. She was campaigning FOR single payer health care against Obama yet criticizes Sanders for it a few years later.

Just don't be surprised when the same status-quo policies continue under Hillary. OBushMa was bad enough from 2000-2016, but people want more of the same? Again, it's literal insanity.
Just to pick one example - single payer. The reality is that the world changed since 2008. We have the ACA now. I personally think it's smarter to evolve in the fact of changing facts, not to mention political realities.

But no, I'm not saying Hillary isn't a politician and is 100% honest. I just don't have the same opinion that she's blatantly worse, nor do I think that positions she's changed on that much more significant to me than the positions Bernie has changed on.

But the fact that you'd say "OBushMa" and that 2000-2016 is the same tells me all I need to know.
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,998 posts, read 12,924,934 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
Just to pick one example - single payer. The reality is that the world changed since 2008. We have the ACA now. I personally think it's smarter to evolve in the fact of changing facts, not to mention political realities.

But no, I'm not saying Hillary isn't a politician and is 100% honest. I just don't have the same opinion that she's blatantly worse, nor do I think that positions she's changed on that much more significant to me than the positions Bernie has changed on.

But the fact that you'd say "OBushMa" and that 2000-2016 is the same tells me all I need to know.

ACA was written by the health insurance companies and does nothing but force people into a corrupt system and fine them if they aren't. Nice "fix" LOL.

It's nothing to "build on". We pay MORE per-capita than countries WITH single payer. Enough of the propaganda. The US also consumes the majority of the World's prescription drugs yet pays more than anyone in the World for them.

Also, the only thing you cited that Sanders has changed his mind on is gay marriage. Yet Hillary has done it worse! So obviously it's not THAT important of an issue to you. Why so intellectually dishonest?

And yes, Obama has continued Bush's policies that matter:

From 2012

"I voted for Obama in 2008, but 4 years later it should be clear to anybody that he is simply a continuation of the disastrous Bush administration. In fact, the resemblance is uncanny.

He kept the same Secretary of Defense until last Summer and followed what was written in the Bush Doctrine, calling for removal from Afghanistan in 2014. His aggressive use of drones and troop surges were a surprise, as all he campaigned on in 2008 was "bringing the troops home". He has even slated some prisoners in Guantanamo Bay for "permanent detention", while stepping up "state secrets", lessening the chance of prosecution for war crimes.

He renewed the nineteen eighty four-ish Patriot Act and even introduced legislature that strip away more citizen freedoms--like NDAA, making Americans subject to detention without trial.

He campaigned on "Making Wall Street accountable". He then re-appointed Bush's pick for Federal Reserve Chairman, Ben Bernanke (after the economic crash that Bernanke so thoroughly failed to foresee).

He kept the Corporate Welfare checks and bailouts flowing, ensuring that nobody would be helped in a poor economy except those that were rich enough to buy reps and change the rules to ultimately destroy it.

He appointed former Monsanto VP, Michael Taylor as senior advisor for the FDA. He surrounded his economic team with Goldman Sach's. He promised to leave alone state-legal marijuana dispensaries and their diverse medical patients, then had the DEA bulldoze their way in, in a surge worse than anything seen under the Bush years."

http://www.city-data.com/blogs/blog34375-dont-vote.html
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Old 02-22-2016, 12:59 PM
 
14,221 posts, read 6,955,379 times
Reputation: 6059
Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
Punditfact is not Politifact. And Chuck Todd repeating a Sanders talking point doesn't make it true.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/

"Bernie Sanders was 'there' on same-sex marriage 20 years ago"

Politifact assessment of this statement:



http://www.politifact.com/punditfact...same-sex-marr/
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Old 02-22-2016, 03:29 PM
 
9,725 posts, read 15,165,460 times
Reputation: 3346
Quote:
Originally Posted by 253valerie View Post
The problem is I don't believe Hillary will do anything she say's she's going to do. I fully believe she's pandering because Bernie has made it necessary for her to address issues that she didn't want to address before.

Voting for Hillary is a vote for more of the same old corporatocracy. I'd rather write-in.
You realize that Bill Clinton was one of the best presidents we ever had?
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