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Old 02-17-2008, 05:38 PM
 
12,870 posts, read 13,148,437 times
Reputation: 4453

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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnt View Post
You do know that McCain has missed over 55% of the senate votes over the same period, right?

Check your facts.

And what makes you think he's "too liberal"? Care to discuss issues, or have you simply attached the label? The "most liberal senator" label that the National Journal attached to him for 2007 was actually done by a composite process. Did you know that McCain missed so many votes that he did not have enough for TNJ to do that composite survey of his votes?
did i recommend voting for mccain? i just made a statement that obama missed that percentage of votes, which was the highest of the democrats, and that he has a very high liberal rating by both the ACLU and ADA. i didn't even know about the national journal rating. nationally, that may not play well as the country in general is more moderate. i actually have not made up my mind on the election and am just simply gathering information on their positions. i am disappointed with all of the positions on illegal immigration.
Presidential Candidates Pro Illegal Immigrants: Giving Social Security Benefits and Making English the Official Language The State of America
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Old 02-17-2008, 05:40 PM
 
413 posts, read 835,026 times
Reputation: 60
Quote:
Originally Posted by floridasandy View Post
did i recommend voting for mccain? i just made a statement that obama missed that percentage of votes, which was the highest of the democrats, and that he has a very high liberal rating by both the ACLU and ADA. i didn't even know about the national journal rating. nationally, that may not play well as the country in general is more moderate. i actually have not made up my mind on the election and am just simply gathering information on their positions. i am disappointed with all of the positions on illegal immigration.
Presidential Candidates Pro Illegal Immigrants: Giving Social Security Benefits and Making English the Official Language The State of America
I'm looking for the ACLU's liberal-o-meter, and I can't find it. Care to link me up?
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:00 PM
 
Location: Albemarle, NC
7,730 posts, read 12,718,411 times
Reputation: 1505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art123 View Post
How COULD anybody on this forum answer your question? You've taken three sentences out of a 15 page document, that has been edited down from a much larger proposal, and pasted them with no context. You really are trying to argue that Obama hasn't provided enough detail on his proposals? These proposals by Hillary and Obama are the most detailed EVER presented by a candidate. My guess is that these numbers you ask for are the things that get negotiated when the bill is actually written. I am sure he and his people with experience and degrees in macroeconomics have starting point numbers in their full proposals. If YOU want to find those numbers and find fault in them, go for it.

Where can I find any detailed info on McCain's health care plan? Or his economic plans? The only proposal I have heard from him is to occupy Iraq for as long as possible. The Republicans have been getting away with bumper sticker slogans for 8 years now. "You're with us or against us." "We'll fight 'em there so we don't fight them here." "Let's Roll." "Mission Accomplished." What the hell do these things really mean?

I really can't believe you are trying to argue that Obama has "vague general comments" on health care. You didn't ask ask a "detailed question of his supporters." You cherry-picked three sentences out of a large document that didn't have specific numbers, somehow insinuating that this plan is not well thought out.

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/pd...reFullPlan.pdf
http://www.barackobama.com/pdf/Obama...lthcareFAQ.pdf
Ok, I've read the plan and the Q&A and found no more information than I found on his website. The same generalized comments with no specifics. However, I did find a couple of articles in the NYTimes regarding both Democrats' plans.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/04/op...04krugman.html

Quote:
To answer this question you need to make a detailed analysis of health care decisions. That’s what Jonathan Gruber of M.I.T., one of America’s leading health care economists, does in a new paper.

Mr. Gruber finds that a plan without mandates, broadly resembling the Obama plan, would cover 23 million of those currently uninsured, at a taxpayer cost of $102 billion per year. An otherwise identical plan with mandates would cover 45 million of the uninsured — essentially everyone — at a taxpayer cost of $124 billion. Over all, the Obama-type plan would cost $4,400 per newly insured person, the Clinton-type plan only $2,700.
So Obama's plan would be more expensive than Hillary's because he doesn't require everyone to participate.

Then, there's this one from Dec 07. Read the part about Medicare. Right now, we're already in the hole to the tune of $175k per person according to the GAO based on their latest Jan 08 release. That's the money already promised to baby boomers for Social Security and Medicare through 2040 (maybe 2030, I can't remember off hand). I mention that because we really can't afford a health care plan. Maybe Obama knows that. See the next article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/07/op...07krugman.html

But this is the really interesting part to me and reinforces the point I was trying to make about all this Obama nonsense.

Quote:
I’d add, however, a further concern: the debate over mandates has reinforced the uncomfortable sense among some health reformers that Mr. Obama just isn’t that serious about achieving universal care — that he introduced a plan because he had to, but that every time there’s a hard choice to be made he comes down on the side of doing less.
So, Obama knows that health care isn't going to be a really big issue in his Presidency. He doesn't really want to force this one anyone else. He only created his plan because the other Democrats did. Fluff and rhetoric. Rinse and repeat. Hope and change. Obama's got nothing.

I should add that I'm happy to see that he's not really interested in health care. I endorse Obama for the Democrats.

Last edited by paperhouse; 02-18-2008 at 07:11 PM..
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Old 02-19-2008, 07:12 AM
 
Location: Turn Left at Greenland
17,700 posts, read 35,637,545 times
Reputation: 7952
Quote:
Originally Posted by burnt View Post
It's not hindsight. He gave that speech, and others opposing the invasion, PRIOR to the invasion. How is that hindsight at all?
Here's my point, he gave a speech in Chicago opposing the war at an anti-war rally. That doesn't have any bearing on what he may have done had he been in congress. That's my point. It's easy to go rah rah sis-boom-bah if he didn't have a say so in what was being voted on.

Trust me, I wish Hillary could admit that she regrets her war vote because she should. That's the one thing I admire Edwards for. See, he was there to vote on the resolution.
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