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Old 02-18-2008, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,290 posts, read 5,035,157 times
Reputation: 785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymous View Post
How so?

The stereotype, as I see it, is that liberals are too concerned with the protection of a specific failing industry, or a specific sector. They often do not agree that some American industries simply will die, it is the natural order of things, and it is what's best for our economy in the long run. My perception is that they'd rather start pulling strings, distorting the market, and produce some specific outcome at the expense of American consumers.

So when you say that liberals are business-friendly, what sort of policies did you have in mind?
I think your understanding of liberal approach to business is faulty.

That said, there are plenty of liberals (and moderates, too) who believe that a healthy, thriving business environment makes for a healthy American economy. As much as they believe that business has obligations to its shareholders and customers, it also has bears the similar community and environmental responsibilities as individuals/consumers/taxpayers.

In short, let business do what business does, so long as they pay their fair share of taxes, and consumers are protected.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Albemarle, NC
7,730 posts, read 12,685,345 times
Reputation: 1503
Obama's health care plan will force employers, yes FORCE, to pay a percentage of the PAYROLL into his plan if they cannot afford to currently offer insurance to their employees. Some businesses will be exempt, but just like everything else on his website, he refers to a "threshold" and never gives exact numbers. I've asked the question before only to be ignored. Where will these employers get this money from? Payroll. Isn't that what they use to pay their employees? They will either be forced to lay off people or charge more for their goods and services. Neither are particularly good during a time of economic uncertainty.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,233 posts, read 7,715,224 times
Reputation: 2623
Quote:
Originally Posted by paperhouse View Post
Obama's health care plan will force employers, yes FORCE, to pay a percentage of the PAYROLL into his plan if they cannot afford to currently offer insurance to their employees. Some businesses will be exempt, but just like everything else on his website, he refers to a "threshold" and never gives exact numbers. I've asked the question before only to be ignored. Where will these employers get this money from? Payroll. Isn't that what they use to pay their employees? They will either be forced to lay off people or charge more for their goods and services. Neither are particularly good during a time of economic uncertainty.
It's funny you keep bringing up that no one has answered your question. You have a wonderful ability of leaving the forum when a hard question is asked of you.

You absolutely were not ignored. Here, AGAIN, is the answer to your question (to which you never responded):
http://www.city-data.com/forum/2008-...ml#post2855157
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:25 PM
 
2,356 posts, read 2,622,113 times
Reputation: 864
Quote:
Originally Posted by backfist View Post
I think your understanding of liberal approach to business is faulty.

That said, there are plenty of liberals (and moderates, too) who believe that a healthy, thriving business environment makes for a healthy American economy. As much as they believe that business has obligations to its shareholders and customers, it also has bears the similar community and environmental responsibilities as individuals/consumers/taxpayers.

In short, let business do what business does, so long as they pay their fair share of taxes, and consumers are protected.
I don't disagree with your stated approach to economics and business, it's just that when I look at Obama and Clinton's policies, they don't seem to line up well with what you're saying is a 'liberal approach to business.'

Barack Obama | Change We Can Believe In | Economy

Examples:
Quote:
The Obama comprehensive energy independence and climate change plan will invest in America's highly-skilled manufacturing workforce and manufacturing centers to ensure that American workers have the skills and tools they need to pioneer the first wave of green technologies that will be in high demand throughout the world. Obama will also provide assistance to the domestic auto industry to ensure that new fuel-efficient vehicles are built by American workers.
It all sounds great, until the last sentence. This tells me that he thinks the U.S. auto industry should receive subsidies from U.S. taxpayers.

Quote:
Obama supports the right of workers to bargain collectively and strike if necessary. He will work to ban the permanent replacement of striking workers, so workers can stand up for themselves without worrying about losing their livelihoods.
This really does not sound at all like "Letting business do what business does." If workers are striking, companies can't replace them? That seems openly anti-business when you're telling businesses who they can hire and fire.

Quote:
Obama will create a program to inform businesses about the benefits of flexible work schedules; help businesses create flexible work opportunities; and increase federal incentives for telecommuting. Obama will also make the federal government a model employer in terms of adopting flexible work schedules and permitting employees to request flexible arrangements.
Why do we need to spend federal tax dollars to encourage telecommuting? Telecommuting, if a viable option, should pay for itself. I can't even imagine what good it would do to subsidize it.

Quote:
As president, Obama will initiate a strategy to encourage all 50 states to adopt paid-leave systems. Obama will provide a $1.5 billion fund to assist states with start-up costs and to help states offset the costs for employees and employers.
Yikes. I don't want to know where that $1.5b will come from, nor do I know where it will go, paying people to not work.

These are just a few that struck me as "bad ideas."

Last edited by anonymous; 02-18-2008 at 02:43 PM..
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,290 posts, read 5,035,157 times
Reputation: 785
Quote:
Originally Posted by paperhouse View Post
Obama's health care plan will force employers, yes FORCE, to pay a percentage of the PAYROLL into his plan if they cannot afford to currently offer insurance to their employees. Some businesses will be exempt, but just like everything else on his website, he refers to a "threshold" and never gives exact numbers. I've asked the question before only to be ignored. Where will these employers get this money from? Payroll. Isn't that what they use to pay their employees? They will either be forced to lay off people or charge more for their goods and services. Neither are particularly good during a time of economic uncertainty.
Not to be condescending, but there is a cost of doing business in this country.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
2,290 posts, read 5,035,157 times
Reputation: 785
Quote:
These are just a few that struck me as "bad ideas."
I'd imagine that ANY restrictions placed on business would be perceived as unfriendly. But in each instance, those restrictions are for the protections of a greater good--be it employees or consumers--relative to that business.
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Old 02-18-2008, 03:06 PM
 
2,356 posts, read 2,622,113 times
Reputation: 864
Quote:
Originally Posted by backfist View Post
I'd imagine that ANY restrictions placed on business would be perceived as unfriendly. But in each instance, those restrictions are for the protections of a greater good--be it employees or consumers--relative to that business.
Right, now that's consistent with the point of view I expect from liberals. I got confused when you said:

Quote:
In short, let business do what business does, so long as they pay their fair share of taxes, and consumers are protected.
Because that sounds more like a conservative point of view than a liberal one. The legislation Obama supports, for instance, regulate far beyond consumer protection and taxes.
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:30 PM
 
9,715 posts, read 13,283,729 times
Reputation: 3318
I find Obama's proposals expensive too, since most of them involve a "fund" of some sort or another and, it seems to me, taxpayers are usually the ones who fund these funds.

Not only that, UBS is not in good financial shape. Is Obama going to bail out the banks via taxpayer funds? The article I linked to at the top explains that UBS's home office (Switzerland) is not going to bail out the USA UBS. UBS sub-prime losses mount to $18.4bn - Times Online

Where is UBS getting funds to contribute to Mr. Obama's campaign? This smells a little like Enron to me... Sorry. It strikes me as odd that Obama would contact the head of UBS FIRST after winning a primary.

On top of all this, I really don't like some of the people on Obama's economic team.

Rubin and Clark on Hillary's team -- why? Also, Paul Krugman is another one supporting Hillary's economic vision. Obama *thinks* he knows something about economics but most economists think he needs about 18+ months to get up to speed.
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:53 PM
 
9,715 posts, read 13,283,729 times
Reputation: 3318
Well, here is how Wolf at UBS met Obama: How Barack Obama Struck Fund-raising Gold -- New York Magazine

Obama wants to be the "non-corporate candidate," yet he's making friends with a corporate guy who wants to be able to give input and ideas to the new president. Isn't that how the Cheney energy bill got so out of whack? Cheney's "friends" giving input and ideas to the VP?

Sorry. This is just MORE POLITICS!!!!! How dumb can voters be?
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Old 02-18-2008, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Albemarle, NC
7,730 posts, read 12,685,345 times
Reputation: 1503
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art123 View Post
It's funny you keep bringing up that no one has answered your question. You have a wonderful ability of leaving the forum when a hard question is asked of you.

You absolutely were not ignored. Here, AGAIN, is the answer to your question (to which you never responded):
http://www.city-data.com/forum/2008-...ml#post2855157
I'm sorry I missed it. I'll be sure to read the plans and see if there's any more information in there. Thanks for the links.

I don't spend my whole day on here, you know. I do run a business and once in a while I have to leave the computer.
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