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Old 07-06-2016, 11:39 AM
 
22,769 posts, read 26,135,447 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by War Beagle View Post
I can't understand the attraction of Hillary to the left. She is a corporatist, big money shill and represents all that is wrong with the intersection of politics and capitalism. She also strikes me as the type who will drag us into all manner of military adventures to prove how tough she is. The only thing that I can see that is attractive about her to the Left is her solidness on abortion. Otherwise, she is pretty much a McCain/McConnell NeoCon from what I can tell.
I agree with this.

Quote:
The general consensus on the Left is that voting for Hillary will be done solely to keep the crazy, unhinged, bigot Trump out of office.
And this.

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Fair enough if you take Trump at face value. My guess is that Trump is playing a character straight out of the WWE in order to get elected. I don't believe that Trump would govern at all like the way he says he would.
And this.

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1) He a rich guy from NYC. He simply is not from a world where right-wing politics are common. His political history until recently suggests moderatism or pragmatism in terms of getting what he needs from a business standpoint. If anything, he was probably a conservative Democrat most of his life.

2) He is a billionaire. What incentive does he have to upend everything? Billionaires relish predictability.

3) He has a history of playing characters. It's what he did on TV. Its why he is orange and has an epic dyed comb-over.

I'm not trying to convince people on the Left to vote for Trump. My only point is that I don't think there is as much daylight between Trump and Hillary as you might think. The main difference is probably that Trump is more isolationist and Hillary more internationalist. I don't think Trump is as economically protectionist as he portrays. I suspect that in private, his views on abortion are probably closer to Hillary's than the Republican base.
But I'm not sure about all this.

I do think Trump wouldn't govern like he campaigns. I think he'd be even worse. The guy is a scam artist.
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Old 07-06-2016, 11:46 AM
 
5,116 posts, read 4,607,614 times
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I dispute the premise that Hillary Clinton is a neoconservative in that a neoconservative is simply a paleoconservative who rejects non-interventionism in international affairs. For the record, neocons and paleocons both agree on smaller government, bigger military budgets, and that taxes are always too high. HRC doesn't adhere to these concepts.
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:27 PM
mm4
 
5,711 posts, read 3,127,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmilf View Post
I dispute the premise that Hillary Clinton is a neoconservative in that a neoconservative is simply a paleoconservative who rejects non-interventionism in international affairs. For the record, neocons and paleocons both agree on smaller government, bigger military budgets, and that taxes are always too high. HRC doesn't adhere to these concepts.
Paleocons do not agree on bigger military budgets. In fact paleocons invoke the Founders who warned against standing armies.
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Old 07-06-2016, 12:35 PM
 
5,116 posts, read 4,607,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm4 View Post
Paleocons do not agree on bigger military budgets.
Libertarians are for smaller military budgets. Paleocons are simply non-interventionists who have never rejected a military budget increase.

Quote:
In fact paleocons invoke the Founders who warned against standing armies.
Show me a paleocon who has called for the elimination of the United States military and I'll agree with your statement.
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Old 07-06-2016, 04:33 PM
 
8,199 posts, read 6,100,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmilf View Post
Show me a paleocon who has called for the elimination of the United States military and I'll agree with your statement.
You wouldn't see Hillary or 99.9% of Democrats call for that either.
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Old 07-06-2016, 04:41 PM
 
8,199 posts, read 6,100,841 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mm4 View Post
"Isolationist" is what the progressive left thinks of non-interventionists. Leftists' whole world view is that if you're not out there overrunning and eliminating boundaries, both personal and transnational, that you're an "isolationist."
I'm no Leftist and I am fine with being called an isolationist.

Quote:
Hillary is the amnesty, immigration reform, gun control, Hillarycare health insurance, Equality, anti-freelancer pro-benefits, Climate Change candidate. Hillary is as progressive-left as you can get.
A good number of the establishment Republicans are either for or indifferent towards most of those things too, so we will have to agree to disagree. I truly believe Hillary is NOT ideological, and that makes her more dangerous. I think that might be why so many of the Left are so worried about Trump. He isn't ideological either.

Hillary uses the facade of progressivism to achieve her goal of empowering and enriching herself and her family. That is the extent of her ideology. Her husband is the same way, but he is infinitely more skilled and relatable as a retail politician.

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Neocons were founded by Bill Kristol's self-identifying "Trotskyist" father, Irving Kristol in the mid century, and are the Democrats' brothers across the aisle.
I think that backs up my point.
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Old 07-06-2016, 04:46 PM
mm4
 
5,711 posts, read 3,127,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by War Beagle View Post
I'm no Leftist and I am fine with being called an isolationist.



A good number of the establishment Republicans are either for or indifferent towards most of those things too, so we will have to agree to disagree. I truly believe Hillary is NOT ideological, and that makes her more dangerous. I think that might be why so many of the Left are so worried about Trump. He isn't ideological either.

Hillary uses the facade of progressivism to achieve her goal of empowering and enriching herself and her family. That is the extent of her ideology. Her husband is the same way, but he is infinitely more skilled and relatable as a retail politician.



I think that backs up my point.
I'll give you 12 paleos--in the Senate alone--right here that want less defense spending. These paleos voted against NDAA (only 2 Dems did):

John Barrasso (R-WY)
Tom Coburn (R-OK)
Bob Corker (R-TN)
Mike Crapo (R-ID)
Ted Cruz (R-TX)
Mike Enzi (R-WY)
Jeff Flake (R-AZ)
Mike Lee (R-UT)
Rand Paul (R-KY)
James Risch (R-ID)
Jeff Sessions (R-AL)
Richard Shelby (R-AL)

War spending cuts are one of the defining characteristics of a paleo.

You forgot something else: Paleos are against police state and surveillance state (unlike the Big Government promoting progressive-left).
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Old 07-06-2016, 04:49 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,881 posts, read 10,345,904 times
Reputation: 8045
Quote:
Originally Posted by mm4 View Post
I'll give you 12 paleos--in the Senate alone--right here that want less defense spending. These paleos voted against NDAA:

John Barrasso (R-WY)
Tom Coburn (R-OK)
Bob Corker (R-TN)
Mike Crapo (R-ID)
Ted Cruz (R-TX)
Mike Enzi (R-WY)
Jeff Flake (R-AZ)
Mike Lee (R-UT)
Rand Paul (R-KY)
James Risch (R-ID)
Jeff Sessions (R-AL)
Richard Shelby (R-AL)

War spending cuts are one of the defining characteristics of a paleo.

You forgot something else: Paleos are against police state and surveillance state (unlike the Big Government promoting progressive-left).
When did Ted Cruz call for less military spending? That alone makes me question your entire list.

You seem to try very hard to make excuses for those you perceive to be on "the right" and blame everything on "the left" but it's very far from being that simple. It is often those on "the left" on the front lines speaking out against war, the police state and surveillance. There are far too many to mention on "the right" that have a core system of beliefs/rhetoric defending and growing these atrocities.
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Old 07-06-2016, 04:50 PM
mm4
 
5,711 posts, read 3,127,492 times
Reputation: 1941
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
When did Ted Cruz call for less military spending? That alone makes me question your entire list.
NDAA votes are public record.
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Old 07-06-2016, 04:58 PM
mm4
 
5,711 posts, read 3,127,492 times
Reputation: 1941
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
It is often those on "the left" on the front lines speaking out against war, the police state and surveillance. There are far too many to mention on "the right" that have a core system of beliefs/rhetoric defending and growing these atrocities.
The progressive left actively promotes taxation for, and build-up of, a Big Government that it fully knows creates and ramps up police- & surveillance-state.
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