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Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,368,826 times
Reputation: 40731
Quote:
Originally Posted by burnt
Right, but a military success it was not, because the military action did not enable political success. In fact, since the political outcome was doomed when the decision to wrongfully invade was made, military success was definitively impossible from the outset.
I completely agree about the political failure but I'm curious: What would you, as a military man consider a military success?
As you've said, you did your job well as did many others, in my eyes that's success, those in the military certainly can't be blamed for doing the job they were given. I believe political change can only come from within a country, it can't be imposed by outside forces.
I completely agree about the political failure but I'm curious: What would you, as a military man consider a military success?
As you've said, you did your job well as did many others, in my eyes that's success, those in the military certainly can't be blamed for doing the job they were given. I believe political change can only come from within a country, it can't be imposed by outside forces.
I don't want to pretend to talk for someone else, but he/she (burnt) said this yesterday:
"No war has ever had a military objective. Ultimately, all objectives of all wars are political, because the whole reason wars are waged is to force the enemy to modify or abandon his own political objectives--even if that is through destroying his existence through total war. Therefore, there cannot be any success without political success."
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
68,329 posts, read 54,368,826 times
Reputation: 40731
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art123
I don't want to pretend to talk for someone else, but he/she (burnt) said this yesterday:
"No war has ever had a military objective. Ultimately, all objectives of all wars are political, because the whole reason wars are waged is to force the enemy to modify or abandon his own political objectives--even if that is through destroying his existence through total war. Therefore, there cannot be any success without political success."
That's really why I asked. Maybe I'm seeing things as a little too black & white but I guess I've been thinking that if not a success it must be a failure. I remember how during the Vietnam era military people were all too often blamed for what was really the failure of the politicians.
My feeling has been that in Iraq, the military has held up its end of the bargain while the politicians have failed to do the same.
Here is a video report from WBAY-Green Bay, of John McCain campaigning in Oshkosh, Wisconsin, where he vowed to "go to the gates of hell, if necessary, to get Osama bin Laden and bring him to justice."
Osama bin laden is in pakistian right now. But yet we are fighting in iraq everyday while losing young american lives. I thought the purpose of the war was to find the person responsible for killing 3,000 americans. I guess awarding goverment contracts in iraq to compaines like halliburton who dick cheney has money tied into. And the oil business in iraq is more important than thousands of american lives.
I have no doubt that the oil in the middleast is important.That is the thing that scares people about pulling out of Iraq.If there is a civil war in Iraq after we leave and then spreads to other middleast countires that could result in a world wide depression.Asl anyone that is old enough to remember the depression of the 30's and then think that this could be alot worse because of no transportation for anything;including food.
I have no doubt that the oil in the middleast is important.That is the thing that scares people about pulling out of Iraq.If there is a civil war in Iraq after we leave and then spreads to other middleast countires that could result in a world wide depression.Asl anyone that is old enough to remember the depression of the 30's and then think that this could be alot worse because of no transportation for anything;including food.
Actually what is worse is the effect we have already had on the region, exerting our force and giving the militant religious leaders more reason to recruit the uneducated youth of the region into becoming terorrists. We have solidified ourselves as satan in their eyes, and continue to do so with each day that we are over there.
Had we gone into Afghanistan and taken out the Taliban and al Queda, followed UBL into Pakistan with a small number of special forces and taken him out, we wouldn't have incited the region. Those actions were just and most people in the region would have supported us. As it stands now 80% of the muslim world agrees with UBL about the impact of our foreign policy. The blowback from our actions will be felt for decades.
I completely agree about the political failure but I'm curious: What would you, as a military man consider a military success?
As you've said, you did your job well as did many others, in my eyes that's success, those in the military certainly can't be blamed for doing the job they were given. I believe political change can only come from within a country, it can't be imposed by outside forces.
I do not consider it a military success. The military portion of a campaign can only be a success if it achieves what is necessary for the entire campaign--that is, the political objective--to be a success. Ergo, as I've explained, since the political campaign was a failure before the invasion even occurred, the military portion was also not a success.
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