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Old 02-19-2008, 10:50 AM
Status: "Elect a clown? Expect a circus!" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
58,073 posts, read 40,850,079 times
Reputation: 29748

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Quote:
Originally Posted by texdav View Post
I have no doubt that the oil in the middleast is important.That is the thing that scares people about pulling out of Iraq.If there is a civil war in Iraq after we leave and then spreads to other middleast countires that could result in a world wide depression.Asl anyone that is old enough to remember the depression of the 30's and then think that this could be alot worse because of no transportation for anything;including food.


I think we also have to look at how America coped during WWII with rationing and Victory Gardens, certainly not the best of times but we pulled through. Sooner or later we'll reach the point where we conclude that the cost of mid-east oil is too much blood and $$$ and even though it'll be difficult I believe we'll be a better country for it.

Imagine if the $$$$$$ we've pis*ed away in Iraq and other holes in the region had been spent on the development of alternative fuels and vehicles, we'd be that much closer to being able to tell OPEC to kiss off,
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:50 AM
 
413 posts, read 833,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
That's really why I asked. Maybe I'm seeing things as a little too black & white but I guess I've been thinking that if not a success it must be a failure. I remember how during the Vietnam era military people were all too often blamed for what was really the failure of the politicians.

My feeling has been that in Iraq, the military has held up its end of the bargain while the politicians have failed to do the same.
Right, but holding up one's end of the bargain is not necessarily success. Accomplishing everything asked of oneself is not successful if that which is asked is in the context of failure.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:55 AM
Status: "Elect a clown? Expect a circus!" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
58,073 posts, read 40,850,079 times
Reputation: 29748
Quote:
Originally Posted by burnt View Post
Right, but holding up one's end of the bargain is not necessarily success. Accomplishing everything asked of oneself is not successful if that which is asked is in the context of failure.

Thanks for the reply. I believe all who've done what was asked of them are individual successes, I just can't blame them for being asked the wrong questions. I hope all who have and will return will be able to feel good about themselves if not about what they were asked to de.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:56 AM
 
413 posts, read 833,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
I think we also have to look at how America coped during WWII with rationing and Victory Gardens, certainly not the best of times but we pulled through. Sooner or later we'll reach the point where we conclude that the cost of mid-east oil is too much blood and $$$ and even though it'll be difficult I believe we'll be a better country for it.

Imagine if the $$$$$$ we've pis*ed away in Iraq and other holes in the region had been spent on the development of alternative fuels and vehicles, we'd be that much closer to being able to tell OPEC to kiss off,
That's exactly what I want to do: make OPEC, and oil-producing nations in general, irrelevant. I don't want a nation that runs on alternative fuels and power sources because I'm some hemp-clad hippy; I want it because every conflict the neoconservative chickenhawks make us fight is that much deeper we find ourselves in our addiction to oil, and every dollar we send to the nations that rely on exports of natural resources (oil, natural gas, diamonds, coal, etc.) is that much more money their regimes have to spend.

Does no one else see that the petrodollars from US pockets are what has been funding the spread of violent fundamentalism in the Middle East, South Asia, and the Horn of Africa the past few decades?

I commend a book to anyone who wants an historical context:

Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:59 AM
 
Location: DFW, TX
2,935 posts, read 6,118,227 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burnt View Post
That's exactly what I want to do: make OPEC, and oil-producing nations in general, irrelevant. I don't want a nation that runs on alternative fuels and power sources because I'm some hemp-clad hippy; I want it because every conflict the neoconservative chickenhawks make us fight is that much deeper we find ourselves in our addiction to oil, and every dollar we send to the nations that rely on exports of natural resources (oil, natural gas, diamonds, coal, etc.) is that much more money their regimes have to spend.

Does no one else see that the petrodollars from US pockets are what has been funding the spread of violent fundamentalism in the Middle East, South Asia, and the Horn of Africa the past few decades?

I commend a book to anyone who wants an historical context:

Ghost Wars: The Secret History of the CIA, Afghanistan, and Bin Laden, from the Soviet Invasion to September 10, 2001
I couldn't agree more. Energy independence would be a shot heard around the world and cut the funding for these operations. I'm glad to see nuclear energy come back to the national discussion, it's the one thing that can really save us until other forms become more viable.
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Old 02-19-2008, 10:59 AM
 
413 posts, read 833,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burdell View Post
Thanks for the reply. I believe all who've done what was asked of them are individual successes, I just can't blame them for being asked the wrong questions. I hope all who have and will return will be able to feel good about themselves if not about what they were asked to de.
That's pretty much where I am. I've been a bit of a minor celebrity in some of my units since I left 4th ID, since I led a team that was instrumental in pinning down the location of and providing vital support for the capture of Saddam Hussein. I don't feel nearly proud of that, but I did my job very well, just as my subordinates and superiors did, but toppling Saddam was not the USA's right. I've allowed myself to reap the benefits of being recognized for extreme competence, but not for having done some great thing in the name of gunpoint democracy.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:02 AM
 
413 posts, read 833,827 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twojciac View Post
I couldn't agree more. Energy independence would be a shot heard around the world and cut the funding for these operations. I'm glad to see nuclear energy come back to the national discussion, it's the one thing that can really save us until other forms become more viable.
That's one of my biggest problems with a lot of ignorant hippies. Some hippies actually think about things, but a lot of the trendy eco-geeks ignore the obvious benefits of nuclear power and the fact that we are learning more and more how to properly deal with nuclear waste.

Same thing with nuclear warheads. As a soldier, chances are I'd have spent every second of the past five years in combat if it hadn't been for the nuclear era. Nuclear weapons have made negotiations more important than mass-scale tactics and bloodbaths. Thank heavens!
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:07 AM
Status: "Elect a clown? Expect a circus!" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
58,073 posts, read 40,850,079 times
Reputation: 29748
Quote:
Originally Posted by twojciac View Post
I couldn't agree more. Energy independence would be a shot heard around the world and cut the funding for these operations. I'm glad to see nuclear energy come back to the national discussion, it's the one thing that can really save us until other forms become more viable.


As I've said before, I wish we'd make the decision to put as much time and effort into fighting to quit oil as we do fighting to get oil.
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Old 02-19-2008, 11:09 AM
 
413 posts, read 833,827 times
Reputation: 60
Posting this again, for relevancy's sake:
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:28 PM
Status: "Elect a clown? Expect a circus!" (set 9 days ago)
 
Location: By the sea, by the sea, by the beautiful sea
58,073 posts, read 40,850,079 times
Reputation: 29748
Quote:
Originally Posted by burnt View Post
Posting this again, for relevancy's sake:


I look forward to the day when I see a poster of Uncle Sam thumbing his nose at the middle-east while proclaiming "We don't need your steenking oil!"
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