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Old 02-18-2008, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,233 posts, read 7,718,988 times
Reputation: 2623

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Quote:
Originally Posted by paperhouse View Post
The default position of humanity is freedom. It takes no government. It requires no health care plan. It costs nothing. In a society, we can't have true freedom, but we should strive to have the smallest intrusions on our individual lives as possible. That's why I support Ron Paul and no one else. Leadership isn't even in my top 3 list of qualities I want from a President. Honesty, integrity, intelligence.
It sounds like you want to return to the anarchy of medieval times, where less than 1% of the people control virtually all the wealth and everyone else. You can't just proclaim "freedom, have at it everybody." Freedom does not exist without government.
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Old 02-18-2008, 05:45 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
9,043 posts, read 11,571,264 times
Reputation: 1392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art123 View Post
It sounds like you want to return to the anarchy of medieval times, where less than 1% of the people control virtually all the wealth and everyone else. You can't just proclaim "freedom, have at it everybody." Freedom does not exist without government.
Sounds like someone likes to put faith in big daddy government over faith in citizens.

Seriously though, it's funny how people assume that we either want zero government or lots of federal agencies running around. How did we survive for so long before 1913 without a quasi-government run central bank? What about before the FDA. I don't remember history books mentioning bodies lying around the country plagued with disease or food poisoning in the 1800s. The "it was simpler then" argument is a nice rebuttal. Go for that if it helps.

People who are apologists for government control are funny.
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Greenville, SC
5,233 posts, read 7,718,988 times
Reputation: 2623
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViewFromThePeak View Post
Sounds like someone likes to put faith in big daddy government over faith in citizens.

Seriously though, it's funny how people assume that we either want zero government or lots of federal agencies running around. How did we survive for so long before 1913 without a quasi-government run central bank? What about before the FDA. I don't remember history books mentioning bodies lying around the country plagued with disease or food poisoning in the 1800s. The "it was simpler then" argument is a nice rebuttal. Go for that if it helps.

People who are apologists for government control are funny.
First, the response was to the statement, "It takes no government." "No" is as definitive as you can get. I would put it right there with your "zero."

You would like to reduce this to a bumper sticker statement that the Republican leadership loves to use like "faith in government over faith in citizens." Well, I'd like to see you, Mr. Citizen, assemble an army to defend us, or build a highway system, or a school system, libraries, or investment in emerging technologies - the kind that got us to the moon - the technologies that would never have been possible without government investment. The only way we are going to get ahead again, and not fall back into the simpler, agrarian days before we had an effective government is through government investment in new technology. Technology that won't happen by just relying on the free market, because it won't be profitable for a long time.

As far as death in the 1800's. Are you serious? Most of the soldiers that died in the Civil War died of disease, not wounds. The Indians that were left during the 19th century died nearly entirely because of disease, not soldiers. We had plagues and huge Depressions that dwarf our current recessions. luckily most people were farmers then and could at least still eat.

It's not government control. It's the people's control through smart government. That's why we need to elect smart people, not people with simple, jingoistic slogans that simplistic folk like to repeat.
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:06 PM
 
Location: Albemarle, NC
7,730 posts, read 12,690,846 times
Reputation: 1504
Art, you missed my comment that followed your nitpicky statement.

Quote:
n a society, we can't have true freedom, but we should strive to have the smallest intrusions on our individual lives as possible.
I recognize that we can't have no government. I just prefer as little as possible. Unlike all the Democratic candidates and the leading Republicans. Stop making this a partisan issue. They all want to control your life, they just disagree on which part they want control over.
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Old 02-18-2008, 07:56 PM
 
Location: DFW, TX
2,935 posts, read 6,116,328 times
Reputation: 571
Quote:
Originally Posted by paperhouse View Post
Art, you missed my comment that followed your nitpicky statement.



I recognize that we can't have no government. I just prefer as little as possible. Unlike all the Democratic candidates and the leading Republicans. Stop making this a partisan issue. They all want to control your life, they just disagree on which part they want control over.
I'll make further concessions... I want a small federal government, but I'm open to a larger local government presence, as long as their funding isn't tied by strings to the federal government.
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:05 PM
 
Location: Albemarle, NC
7,730 posts, read 12,690,846 times
Reputation: 1504
Quote:
Originally Posted by twojciac View Post
I'll make further concessions... I want a small federal government, but I'm open to a larger local government presence, as long as their funding isn't tied by strings to the federal government.
I try not to break it down into local/federal. It confuses the masses.
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Old 02-18-2008, 08:43 PM
 
48,516 posts, read 83,675,284 times
Reputation: 18036
Quote:
Originally Posted by paperhouse View Post
Art, you missed my comment that followed your nitpicky statement.



I recognize that we can't have no government. I just prefer as little as possible. Unlike all the Democratic candidates and the leading Republicans. Stop making this a partisan issue. They all want to control your life, they just disagree on which part they want control over.

Let me guess you are a ron paul supporter. IMO he is just another george wallace states rights candidate. Those were very corrupt and terriable days in which the wealthy did in fact run the government by corruption.
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Old 02-18-2008, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
9,043 posts, read 11,571,264 times
Reputation: 1392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art123 View Post
First, the response was to the statement, "It takes no government." "No" is as definitive as you can get. I would put it right there with your "zero."

You would like to reduce this to a bumper sticker statement that the Republican leadership loves to use like "faith in government over faith in citizens." Well, I'd like to see you, Mr. Citizen, assemble an army to defend us, or build a highway system, or a school system, libraries, or investment in emerging technologies - the kind that got us to the moon - the technologies that would never have been possible without government investment. The only way we are going to get ahead again, and not fall back into the simpler, agrarian days before we had an effective government is through government investment in new technology. Technology that won't happen by just relying on the free market, because it won't be profitable for a long time.

As far as death in the 1800's. Are you serious? Most of the soldiers that died in the Civil War died of disease, not wounds. The Indians that were left during the 19th century died nearly entirely because of disease, not soldiers. We had plagues and huge Depressions that dwarf our current recessions. luckily most people were farmers then and could at least still eat.

It's not government control. It's the people's control through smart government. That's why we need to elect smart people, not people with simple, jingoistic slogans that simplistic folk like to repeat.
Hehe...very funny.

The worst depression was suffered as part of Hoover's and FDR's government controls to try to "fix" a stock market crash. The New Deal caused the 1937 recession and we didn't get out of it until sacrificing during WW2.

Before 1913, some bank panics. No depressions. No housing bubble, no stock market bubble.

The Civil War was big government, once again, getting in the way of states wanted to decouple. The diseases are a direct result of that government intervention.

We can get to the moon through private investment, and we're about to go into space through private investment. Also, what did getting to the moon do except waste money?

Doctors used to make house calls for simple folk before Medicare and big beaucratic government making a quasi-socialist health care system.

People used to raise 3 or more kids with one income. Inflation by the Fed to fund entitlement programs through the decades put a quick end to that. Including the precious FDA, FCC, FAA, and NASA agencies you love. Don't believe me? Oil is nearly the same price since 1970 when you compare it against REAL money, gold.

The public school system is failing, and DC schools prove that federal funding is a black hole producing severely depreciating results with exponentially increasing funding.

Local government can do anything the federal government can do, but even better and more efficiently.

Yep, I certainly reduce this to a bumper sticker. We've entered into the abyss and it'll take some real shoveling to get out of the BS the government apologists, left and right, have gotten us into.
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Old 02-19-2008, 04:02 AM
 
9,715 posts, read 13,290,266 times
Reputation: 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linson View Post
this is a thinly vieled anti-Obama, pro hillary post.
Obama has no experience. How is this "thinly vieled"? And what is "vieled" anyway? I thought Obama only attracted MENSA candidates.
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Old 02-19-2008, 04:04 AM
 
9,715 posts, read 13,290,266 times
Reputation: 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by backfist View Post
If you want someone with experience in politicking and who's non-motivational, then I urge you to vote for Hillary Clinton.
And if you want someone with experience in politicking and who is motivational, then I urge you to vote for Barack Obama.

If you want someone who will get something done in Washington, you might want to vote for John McCain.
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