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Old 08-23-2017, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Northwest Peninsula
3,230 posts, read 1,599,002 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxmanSneaks View Post
Do you think he really would have defeated Donald Trump in the presidential election?
I wish you would have made this a poll....I would have voted no. America on the whole is not ready for socialist ideas like free..free..free stuff.
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Old 08-23-2017, 11:50 AM
 
Location: US
17,921 posts, read 17,824,107 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxmanSneaks View Post
Do you think he really would have defeated Donald Trump in the presidential election?
Yes, easily would have won. I know so many people who were passionate about him for similar economic reasons people were passionate of Trump. A lot of my Democrat friends didn't end up voting because they felt betrayed by the DNC for colluding with Hillary during the primary. I also know Bernie supporters who voted for Trump because of his populism appeal. Every poll showed Bernie was way ahead of Trump, while Hillary was always + only a few points.
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Old 08-23-2017, 01:18 PM
 
78,808 posts, read 33,532,796 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rantiquity View Post
I wish you would have made this a poll....I would have voted no. America on the whole is not ready for socialist ideas like free..free..free stuff.
How do you propose to pay for the wars?
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Old 08-23-2017, 01:31 PM
 
Location: Somerville, MA
8,000 posts, read 16,052,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmw335xi View Post
Yes, easily would have won. I know so many people who were passionate about him for similar economic reasons people were passionate of Trump. A lot of my Democrat friends didn't end up voting because they felt betrayed by the DNC for colluding with Hillary during the primary. I also know Bernie supporters who voted for Trump because of his populism appeal. Every poll showed Bernie was way ahead of Trump, while Hillary was always + only a few points.
I don't think he would have easily won in spite of the fact that he beat Hillary in some of the key states that determined the election.

If Bernie was the nominee for the Dems, the Trump campaign strategy would have been different. They would have beaten him over the head with the "socialist" stuff, and it would have scared a lot of people away. Socialism is not a popular term, and it's easy to run a campaign on fear mongering surrounding the word. In today's climate,Trump would go on and on about how "socialist" countries are "failing" because they let in migrants from the Middle East (who are all criminals, of course), how socialism leads to a much higher cost of living (typically true in the countries that have adopted a more socialist government- Sweden and Denmark are good examples), and how is policies will further cripple industry in rural America. He'll highlight Vermont's largely service (tourism) based economy and pick on the decline of the lumber industry and other "good middle class jobs." Bernie would be better in debates, but his policies and his far left leanings would absolutely be used against him.

In the end, Bernie could have gained some of the people who voted for Trump because he was "anti-establishment." But he also wouldn't have won some of the more moderate, mainstream republicans that voted for Hillary because of how far left he leans. So it likely would have also been close, but I don't know that he would have won. He certainly wouldn't have won easily.
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Old 08-23-2017, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Texas
3,253 posts, read 1,725,015 times
Reputation: 3080
Quote:
Originally Posted by rantiquity View Post
I wish you would have made this a poll....I would have voted no. America on the whole is not ready for socialist ideas like free..free..free stuff.
He said he'd raise taxes to pay for a lot of those ideas, including on the middle class.

Not many politicians would even think to suggest something like that during an election.

In any case, I appreciated my "free" K-12 education.
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Old 08-23-2017, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Kansas
19,185 posts, read 15,015,366 times
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It is very true that Sanders polled much, much better consistently against Trump than did Hillary Clinton. Most of us knew that Trump would defeat Hillary unless she found a really good way to cheat, that was the fear, that she would have put together a good way to cheat her way to victory. I believe she lost a lot of support when Bernie was FORCED out. So you had those supporting Bernie that in the first place did it to oppose Clinton, and then she lost even more supporters when they FORCED Bernie out.

I think Bernie would have held his own against Trump, and that people would have been much more satisfied with the outcome either way. All the brainwashing involved with trying to get Hillary to victory would have been absent.

I was sorry not to see a debate between Trump and Sanders. I was at Sanders FB page yesterday by accident, and he is going strong and gaining support. This support could be the new Democratic Party forming, as the old one is dead.
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:12 PM
 
Location: Here and now.
11,917 posts, read 3,629,369 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PilgrimsProgress View Post
What if Martians had landed on election day?
I dunno. Maybe this?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eujwxh_r43E
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Old 08-23-2017, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,553 posts, read 3,279,241 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoxmanSneaks View Post
Do you think he really would have defeated Donald Trump in the presidential election?
Obviously, it's impossible to know, but we can certainly guess.

Firstly, Hillary Clinton is a terrible campaigner. She's actually a spectacular politician, which can be good or bad, so that would leave her as the most qualified candidate on paper. However, she's not great at selling herself. Bernie, however, is. He's got the same ability to be a crowd pleaser as Trump does, and frankly, Sanders is more substantive.

Another fact; Sanders is an outsider. Many people vote for Trump specifically for that reason. It's not unreasonable to think that many would vote for Sanders over Trump since he's a more qualified outsider.

Sanders may also have been a harder target for Trump. Trump spent most of his campaign against Clinton going after personal things or relatively small things politically. Trump may not have been able to do this with Sanders.

The factor that does work against Sanders is that he's not very centrist, while Clinton was (initially; she moved a bit more to the left in hopes of getting the Bernie crowd to back her... it did not work). Centrists are typically more palatable and able to get votes from the other side, which can make or break an election. While Trump is generally viewed as not being a centrist either, he's also very politically atypical, not fitting very well on the left/right spectrum (which suggests we should use it, but how else are stupid people going to make blanket statements about everyone they disagree with?). Bernie however fits pretty well on the left, and calls himself a socialist, which in this country, is pretty dangerous. Granted, he never shied away from calling himself that, and he still performed far better than most would predict, so that may not have been as much of a problem.

Bottom line, I think he'd have done better than Clinton, but that doesn't mean I think he'd for sure have won.
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Old 08-23-2017, 04:59 PM
 
Location: Texas
3,253 posts, read 1,725,015 times
Reputation: 3080
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDusty View Post
Obviously, it's impossible to know, but we can certainly guess.

Firstly, Hillary Clinton is a terrible campaigner. She's actually a spectacular politician, which can be good or bad, so that would leave her as the most qualified candidate on paper. However, she's not great at selling herself. Bernie, however, is. He's got the same ability to be a crowd pleaser as Trump does, and frankly, Sanders is more substantive.

Another fact; Sanders is an outsider. Many people vote for Trump specifically for that reason. It's not unreasonable to think that many would vote for Sanders over Trump since he's a more qualified outsider.

Sanders may also have been a harder target for Trump. Trump spent most of his campaign against Clinton going after personal things or relatively small things politically. Trump may not have been able to do this with Sanders.

The factor that does work against Sanders is that he's not very centrist, while Clinton was (initially; she moved a bit more to the left in hopes of getting the Bernie crowd to back her... it did not work). Centrists are typically more palatable and able to get votes from the other side, which can make or break an election. While Trump is generally viewed as not being a centrist either, he's also very politically atypical, not fitting very well on the left/right spectrum (which suggests we should use it, but how else are stupid people going to make blanket statements about everyone they disagree with?). Bernie however fits pretty well on the left, and calls himself a socialist, which in this country, is pretty dangerous. Granted, he never shied away from calling himself that, and he still performed far better than most would predict, so that may not have been as much of a problem.

Bottom line, I think he'd have done better than Clinton, but that doesn't mean I think he'd for sure have won.
I disagree. "Centrist" these days seems to default right of center which Clinton was. The reason why I think he did well as you said, is because despite somewhat "owning" the socialist title, his policies aren't nearly as radical as some make them out to be.

I keep reading these articles about how people are more accepting of "socialism", when it seems to me there's a fundamental disconnect between groups on what that "socialism" looks like (Venezuela/North Korea vs Sweden/Australia). In a lot of ways the US had already embraced many "socialist lite" policies with FDR that exist to this day that many people would hesitate to give up when having to face the reality of how their day to day lives would really change.
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Old 08-23-2017, 05:27 PM
 
80 posts, read 33,484 times
Reputation: 16
Quote:
Originally Posted by lrfox View Post
I don't think he would have easily won in spite of the fact that he beat Hillary in some of the key states that determined the election.

If Bernie was the nominee for the Dems, the Trump campaign strategy would have been different. They would have beaten him over the head with the "socialist" stuff, and it would have scared a lot of people away. Socialism is not a popular term, and it's easy to run a campaign on fear mongering surrounding the word. In today's climate,Trump would go on and on about how "socialist" countries are "failing" because they let in migrants from the Middle East (who are all criminals, of course), how socialism leads to a much higher cost of living (typically true in the countries that have adopted a more socialist government- Sweden and Denmark are good examples), and how is policies will further cripple industry in rural America. He'll highlight Vermont's largely service (tourism) based economy and pick on the decline of the lumber industry and other "good middle class jobs." Bernie would be better in debates, but his policies and his far left leanings would absolutely be used against him.

In the end, Bernie could have gained some of the people who voted for Trump because he was "anti-establishment." But he also wouldn't have won some of the more moderate, mainstream republicans that voted for Hillary because of how far left he leans. So it likely would have also been close, but I don't know that he would have won. He certainly wouldn't have won easily.
So in way Bernie Sanders is pretty much like Ron Paul only he ran as a Democrat ,and Ron Paul ran as a Republican.
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