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Old 08-26-2017, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Texas
3,253 posts, read 1,725,015 times
Reputation: 3080

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Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
Proven that the primary was rigged? Nope.

But yes, there is proof that Bernie cheated - accessed Clinton campaign data, lied about endorsements that he never received (sent out printed materials claiming them), volunteers lied about being union members to infiltrate union meetings - I think more that I'm not remembering off the top of my head.

And as I mentioned upthread, there is so much dirt on Bernie that never got play in the primary that Trump would have flogged for all he was worth. To assume that votes would have been completely unaffected by that is incredibly naive.
The DNC dropped the firewalls on purpose. They were notified several times in prior weeks by the Sander's camp before anybody ever took a peak, and it works both ways, who knows how much info the Clinton campaign had already collected from the Sander's campaign.
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Old 08-26-2017, 06:24 PM
 
Location: Denver CO
21,163 posts, read 11,768,218 times
Reputation: 32161
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Cravings View Post
The DNC dropped the firewalls on purpose. They were notified several times in prior weeks by the Sander's camp before anybody ever took a peak, and it works both ways, who knows how much info the Clinton campaign had already collected from the Sander's campaign.
Except we do know, because they could see that when they did the investigation and no, the Clinton campaign did not steal the Sanders campaign info. But nice of you to drop a gratuitous lie in there with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
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Old 08-26-2017, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Iowa, USA
6,553 posts, read 3,279,816 times
Reputation: 3801
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheesesteak Cravings View Post
I disagree. "Centrist" these days seems to default right of center which Clinton was. The reason why I think he did well as you said, is because despite somewhat "owning" the socialist title, his policies aren't nearly as radical as some make them out to be.

I keep reading these articles about how people are more accepting of "socialism", when it seems to me there's a fundamental disconnect between groups on what that "socialism" looks like (Venezuela/North Korea vs Sweden/Australia). In a lot of ways the US had already embraced many "socialist lite" policies with FDR that exist to this day that many people would hesitate to give up when having to face the reality of how their day to day lives would really change.
I don't think Sanders is a radical but he's pretty far left by the standards of American politics, which tend to be more right wing as a whole.

If this were Europe, a guy like Bernie would be fairly unremarkable, depending on which country. He'd do well in Denmark. He'd at least have a shot at being popular in the UK. In the US, it's damn impressive he was taken seriously at all.

Indeed, his positions aren't extreme. Left wing, no doubt, but not extreme. Most of his ideas were expanding on existing things. Medicare already exists; he wanted to expand it. Public universities are already a thing; he wanted more funding. FDR was farther to the left than Bernie was, FDR just couldn't call himself a socialist. Not at that time. The word is used different now. The socialism of the 20th century is basically dead; there are almost no communists around today. The few who are are considered fringe, so far outside of the mainstream that most don't bother to take them seriously.

Frankly, Sanders is barely a socialist by the traditional definition, which is the believe the industry should be socialized. Most industry, he seems to think can or should remain private. He seems to support public alternative for more necessary industries, and believes in mandatory public insurance. He's no radical, but by American standards, he's very far left (even though we've had farther left people in office before).
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Old 08-26-2017, 07:01 PM
 
Location: Texas
3,253 posts, read 1,725,015 times
Reputation: 3080
Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
Except we do know, because they could see that when they did the investigation and no, the Clinton campaign did not steal the Sanders campaign info. But nice of you to drop a gratuitous lie in there with absolutely no evidence whatsoever.
We know why they did it.

How 'bout that Wasserman Schultz, eh?

Quote:
"This wasn't the first time we identified a bad breach," he said, confirming to CNN that the Sanders campaign reported another breach to the DNC in October. "We reported it to them. They thanked us for reporting it and they told us the breach had been closed."
"In retrospect, I got a little panicky because our data was totally exposed, too," Uretsky said of how he handled the latest breach. " We had to have an assessment, and understand of how broad the exposure was and I had to document it so that I could try to calm down and think about what actually happened so that I could figure out how to protect our stuff."
Sanders campaign sues DNC after database breach - CNNPolitics
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Old 08-27-2017, 06:17 AM
 
78,832 posts, read 33,532,796 times
Reputation: 15788
Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
This thread is Exhibit 1 in how the Brocialists are going to end up giving Trump a second term after all
The answer of how to stop that is all here, but it will likely be ignored. A corporate war monger is a corporate war monger, it matters none what letter is after their name.
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Old 08-29-2017, 06:13 PM
 
Location: 500 miles from home
29,996 posts, read 16,591,924 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrfox View Post
I don't think he would have easily won in spite of the fact that he beat Hillary in some of the key states that determined the election.

If Bernie was the nominee for the Dems, the Trump campaign strategy would have been different. They would have beaten him over the head with the "socialist" stuff, and it would have scared a lot of people away. Socialism is not a popular term, and it's easy to run a campaign on fear mongering surrounding the word. In today's climate,Trump would go on and on about how "socialist" countries are "failing" because they let in migrants from the Middle East (who are all criminals, of course), how socialism leads to a much higher cost of living (typically true in the countries that have adopted a more socialist government- Sweden and Denmark are good examples), and how is policies will further cripple industry in rural America. He'll highlight Vermont's largely service (tourism) based economy and pick on the decline of the lumber industry and other "good middle class jobs." Bernie would be better in debates, but his policies and his far left leanings would absolutely be used against him.

In the end, Bernie could have gained some of the people who voted for Trump because he was "anti-establishment." But he also wouldn't have won some of the more moderate, mainstream republicans that voted for Hillary because of how far left he leans. So it likely would have also been close, but I don't know that he would have won. He certainly wouldn't have won easily.
A solid, non-emotion based analysis. Bernie certainly had some weak spots that Trump would have exploited the hell out of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
This thread is Exhibit 1 in how the Brocialists are going to end up giving Trump a second term after all
Yes, they are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
Proven that the primary was rigged? Nope.

But yes, there is proof that Bernie cheated - accessed Clinton campaign data, lied about endorsements that he never received (sent out printed materials claiming them), volunteers lied about being union members to infiltrate union meetings - I think more that I'm not remembering off the top of my head.

And as I mentioned upthread, there is so much dirt on Bernie that never got play in the primary that Trump would have flogged for all he was worth. To assume that votes would have been completely unaffected by that is incredibly naive.
Bernistas refuse to acknowledge this. Bernie also failed to introduce himself to the black voting bloc - many of whom were already familiar with and genuinely liked Bill Clinton. Bernie knew this was a problem for him and was advised many times to reach out. He simply failed to do so in time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slats Grobnick View Post
Trump didn't even get started on Bernie, the worst he called him was crazy Bernie.

Imagine if Trump went after Bernie, he'd destroy him. Bernie Bros can't seem to comprehend how vicious Trump can get and how good he is at it. They are delusional
Trump would have gone to town. He's really good at exploiting the slightest weakness. Bernie's lackluster past, the stupid rape story, his prior association with the socialist workers party and other far, far left organizations would have been great for 'red baiting' by the republican party.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:32 PM
 
Location: Denver CO
21,163 posts, read 11,768,218 times
Reputation: 32161
Quote:
Originally Posted by pknopp View Post
The answer of how to stop that is all here, but it will likely be ignored. A corporate war monger is a corporate war monger, it matters none what letter is after their name.
even if you are correct that Hillary Clinton is a warmonger, it's not like Bernie ever met a military spending bill he didn't like. Yet somehow, Hillary gets pilloried for her vote on the AUMF, a vote which she eloquently spoke at length about why she voted that way despite her misgivings. Yet for some reason, all of Bernie's wrongheaded votes are fine, he's allowed to give explanations and justifications and excuses. But just Bernie is allowed that privilege, everyone else is supposed to be 100% perfect all the time.

But aside from that, have you been blind, deaf and dumb for the past 7 months? Do you think that your agenda is the ONLY issue that matters?

Tell that to undocumented immigrants ripped from their families and deported. Tell that to all the people who have grown oddly fond of breathing clean air and drinking clean water. Tell that to people whose lives literally depend on the healthcare they receive via the ACA which remains in jeopardy. Tell that to women whose right to control their own bodily autonomy is being severely threatened - oh, that's right, Bernie thinks that abortion rights are just a distraction from important issues. Tell that to Heather Heyer's family, and that you are perfectly ok with a newly emboldened group of white supremacists and Neo Nazis stalking our country.

Tell all those people that their concerns are not important as long as your precious (even if misguided) agenda is served.
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Old 08-29-2017, 07:44 PM
 
78,832 posts, read 33,532,796 times
Reputation: 15788
Quote:
Originally Posted by emm74 View Post
even if you are correct that Hillary Clinton is a warmonger, it's not like Bernie ever met a military spending bill he didn't like. Yet somehow, Hillary gets pilloried for her vote on the AUMF, a vote which she eloquently spoke at length about why she voted that way despite her misgivings. Yet for some reason, all of Bernie's wrongheaded votes are fine, he's allowed to give explanations and justifications and excuses. But just Bernie is allowed that privilege, everyone else is supposed to be 100% perfect all the time.
We need to fund the military.

Quote:
But aside from that, have you been blind, deaf and dumb for the past 7 months? Do you think that your agenda is the ONLY issue that matters?
To me? Yes, absolutely.

Quote:
Tell that to undocumented immigrants ripped from their families and deported. Tell that to all the people who have grown oddly fond of breathing clean air and drinking clean water. Tell that to people whose lives literally depend on the healthcare they receive via the ACA which remains in jeopardy. Tell that to women whose right to control their own bodily autonomy is being severely threatened - oh, that's right, Bernie thinks that abortion rights are just a distraction from important issues. Tell that to Heather Heyer's family, and that you are perfectly ok with a newly emboldened group of white supremacists and Neo Nazis stalking our country.

Tell all those people that their concerns are not important as long as your precious (even if misguided) agenda is served.
Obama argued he deported more illegals than anyone.

Hillary would have been different?

Obama Has Deported More People Than Any Other President - ABC News

Sanders argued and has fought for Universal Health care, not the crap Obama and Hillary has fought for. The crap in Charlottesville was created by the two parties because they see their grip slipping.
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Old 08-30-2017, 06:52 AM
 
Location: Connecticut
504 posts, read 256,066 times
Reputation: 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by hashbrown View Post
Bernie consistently led Trump in polls by about 10 points. Hillary and Trump were about even. And Hillary was able to "win" the Democratic primary through
Are these the same polls that had Hilary beating Trump big in the general election? Well we all know how that turned out.
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Old 08-30-2017, 06:57 AM
 
78,832 posts, read 33,532,796 times
Reputation: 15788
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matrix2791 View Post
Are these the same polls that had Hilary beating Trump big in the general election? Well we all know how that turned out.
Most of these polls were pretty close. They had Trump and Hillary very close with Sanders ahead of both. In the end, Trump and Hillary were very close.
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