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Old 07-21-2018, 10:37 AM
 
Location: Pine Grove,AL
23,216 posts, read 11,473,657 times
Reputation: 4301

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
Not at all!

Universal Health Care: We pay for everybody else!

Better access to higher education: We pay for everybody that cannot afford it or refuses to work for it!

A rise in the minimum wage: You allow illegal immigrants to take the jobs you want to raise!

Now what will you do for the American taxpayer?
Universal Health Care is for the most part single payer, which means payroll taxes paying for health care instead of you paying out money to insurance companies.

Better access to higher education actually has to do with improving educational infrastructure and insuring equal opportunity across the board.

A good example of this is Community Colleges offering real world apprenticeships and certification programs so that people can go directly into the work force as well as partnering with major industries and companies to have direct work force placement.

Raising the minimum wage, not sure how you think that would only apply to illegals. It looks like you are purposefully inflating an argument there.
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Old 07-21-2018, 05:22 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
14,271 posts, read 11,624,769 times
Reputation: 10671
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
Universal Health Care is for the most part single payer, which means payroll taxes paying for health care instead of you paying out money to insurance companies.
Who will be covered by the universal health care? According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employ...pulation_ratio) about 30% of America is unemployed - but their 'key definitions' do count many that are not working full time. So the figures could be substantially higher. That lays a heavy burden on the shoulders of those that do work. Payroll taxes do not mean that the employee does not pay. Any money that is taken out for the employee is counted as the total cost to keep that employee on the payroll. That is what employers look at when they calculate whether an employee is worth the money or to hire more employees. There is no such thing as a painless tax!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
Better access to higher education actually has to do with improving educational infrastructure and insuring equal opportunity across the board.

A good example of this is Community Colleges offering real world apprenticeships and certification programs so that people can go directly into the work force as well as partnering with major industries and companies to have direct work force placement.
I believe that was one of President Trumps pledges. He wanted more vocational training: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trum...ry?id=53988808. The problem with just promoting 'higher education' is that for many the taxpayer would be wasting their money; not all go on to get an education that provides them with a vocation. Many are simply in college for all the wrong reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
Raising the minimum wage, not sure how you think that would only apply to illegals. It looks like you are purposefully inflating an argument there.
If you raise the living wage employers will seek a way to cut cost. That is what they have done in the cities that did raise the wage. But Nationally they would simply turn to automation or under the table illegal immigration. It is always about the bottom line. Without any minimum wage; employers have to raise their wages if they want to get or keep employees in a competitive market. That is what is happening in many places right now because labor is tight. The 'natural way' is the best way because of our economic system.
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Old 07-21-2018, 07:01 PM
 
28 posts, read 11,696 times
Reputation: 25
I Personally can't wait both parties are done and people need to stop worshipping this woman, she makes dump aka trump look like a saint, look at her history and she would be a total nightmare.
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Old 07-21-2018, 07:05 PM
 
Location: Old Mother Idaho
21,230 posts, read 14,251,947 times
Reputation: 15723
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post


If you raise the living wage employers will seek a way to cut cost. That is what they have done in the cities that did raise the wage. But Nationally they would simply turn to automation or under the table illegal immigration. It is always about the bottom line. Without any minimum wage; employers have to raise their wages if they want to get or keep employees in a competitive market. That is what is happening in many places right now because labor is tight. The 'natural way' is the best way because of our economic system.
That is only true when there are more workers than available jobs.

The fact is the United States is under-populated for the size of its industrial base.

There aren't enough workers available now to fill the job openings we have, even if every single one who is willing to work any job available was to go to work.

While there are many tight spots in the nation where a living wage is impossible to find, refusing to spend life working a non-living wage job is, for most folks, still a better option than wasting your life in a steady downhill fall into age and poverty.

There are options that are still available to all but the most desperately poor, so eventually, the minimum wage will rise to become closer to the true costs of living than they are now. The gap won't close, but it will narrow. The alternative is worse than the raise, so the raise will happen everywhere, but not at the same time, nor in the same amounts.

There is nothing at all 'natural' in the way it is now, so that will change too. Capitalism only survives when it adjusts to the times, and our capitalism has adjusted many times to change. Some of our major industries and institutions have already raised their minimum wages, just to be out in front of their competition already.

Labor is always the greatest business expense of all in any business.
A superior labor force is one that is happy, stable, and experienced. Those factors only come when the labor force is content with the money they get for the work they do. When labor ain't happy, there ain't nobody happy. That's the eternal fact of all businesses, large and small.

Whichever party that gets out in front on this issue will win big in some areas. It's going to be a major issue this year, and will be interesting to watch the outcomes.

Last edited by banjomike; 07-21-2018 at 07:14 PM..
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Old 07-21-2018, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
14,271 posts, read 11,624,769 times
Reputation: 10671
Quote:
Originally Posted by banjomike View Post
That is only true when there are more workers than available jobs.

The fact is the United States is under-populated for the size of its industrial base.

There aren't enough workers available now to fill the job openings we have, even if every single one who is willing to work any job available was to go to work.

While there are many tight spots in the nation where a living wage is impossible to find, refusing to spend life working a non-living wage job is, for most folks, still a better option than wasting your life in a steady downhill fall into age and poverty.

There are options that are still available to all but the most desperately poor, so eventually, the minimum wage will rise to become closer to the true costs of living than they are now. The gap won't close, but it will narrow. The alternative is worse than the raise, so the raise will happen everywhere, but not at the same time, nor in the same amounts.

There is nothing at all 'natural' in the way it is now, so that will change too. Capitalism only survives when it adjusts to the times, and our capitalism has adjusted many times to change. Some of our major industries and institutions have already raised their minimum wages, just to be out in front of their competition already.

Labor is always the greatest business expense of all in any business.
A superior labor force is one that is happy, stable, and experienced. Those factors only come when the labor force is content with the money they get for the work they do. When labor ain't happy, there ain't nobody happy. That's the eternal fact of all businesses, large and small.

Whichever party that gets out in front on this issue will win big in some areas. It's going to be a major issue this year, and will be interesting to watch the outcomes.

Which is the reason that wages will increase the 'natural way'. We adjust our needs with legal immigration. Opening our doors to illegal immigration just throws a monkey wrench in the mess. It also sends the wrong message and we lose control of our borders.
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Old 07-22-2018, 05:15 AM
 
Location: Pine Grove,AL
23,216 posts, read 11,473,657 times
Reputation: 4301
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
Who will be covered by the universal health care? According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Employ...pulation_ratio) about 30% of America is unemployed - but their 'key definitions' do count many that are not working full time. So the figures could be substantially higher. That lays a heavy burden on the shoulders of those that do work. Payroll taxes do not mean that the employee does not pay. Any money that is taken out for the employee is counted as the total cost to keep that employee on the payroll. That is what employers look at when they calculate whether an employee is worth the money or to hire more employees. There is no such thing as a painless tax!
Maybe you misinterpreted me, but by "payroll tax" i mean Medicare, which is by definition and in every conversation I have ever had, has been called a payroll tax.

Not sure why you said
Quote:
Payroll taxes do not mean that the employee does not pay. Any money that is taken out for the employee is counted as the total cost to keep that employee on the payroll.
Did you think I thought payroll taxes were "extra money " the employer gives people. LOL

to make it even more clear.

instead of paying 30 dollars a month in medicare and another 200 or for medical insurance, you would simply pay for example 150 to medicare. the theory is that it saves everyone money overall.


as for your link, its flawed. it counts age 15-64 as employment age and says everyone between those ages is either employed or unemployed.

I hope you can see the flaw in that logic.

Quote:
I believe that was one of President Trumps pledges. He wanted more vocational training: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/trum...ry?id=53988808. The problem with just promoting 'higher education' is that for many the taxpayer would be wasting their money; not all go on to get an education that provides them with a vocation. Many are simply in college for all the wrong reasons.
You seem to be misunderstanding.

The Workforce Initiative Grant(cant remember the full name of it) only goes to people who actually take the courses that lead to certain fields. you cant just "go to college for the wrong reasons" as you say.

And you have to finish the courses otherwise you have to pay the money back in some cases.

Honestly, im not trying to degrade you, but instead of "picking a side" , you should research these issues.

For all your argument of Trump pledges and changes, Obama was already doing many of these things and it seems you were so busy being against him, that you forgot what you were actually for.


Quote:
If you raise the living wage employers will seek a way to cut cost. That is what they have done in the cities that did raise the wage. But Nationally they would simply turn to automation or under the table illegal immigration. It is always about the bottom line. Without any minimum wage; employers have to raise their wages if they want to get or keep employees in a competitive market. That is what is happening in many places right now because labor is tight. The 'natural way' is the best way because of our economic system.
Our wage and economic system isnt as simple as you claim.

Let me explain it to you this way.

No one will work for 0 dollars an hour and no employer can stay in business paying 100 dollars an hour. There is an equilibrium and that is what the minimum wage is.

yes, there is competition for employees and that raises wages, but that does not have anything to do with the current minimum wage or weather raising it hurts a business.

by the way, the first thing companies do with wage increases is quality control, employees are actually the last thing to go in any cost cutting measures not matter what the reason is for the cost cutting.
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Old 07-22-2018, 06:05 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
14,271 posts, read 11,624,769 times
Reputation: 10671
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
Maybe you misinterpreted me, but by "payroll tax" i mean Medicare, which is by definition and in every conversation I have ever had, has been called a payroll tax.

Not sure why you said

Did you think I thought payroll taxes were "extra money " the employer gives people. LOL

to make it even more clear.

instead of paying 30 dollars a month in medicare and another 200 or for medical insurance, you would simply pay for example 150 to medicare. the theory is that it saves everyone money overall.


as for your link, its flawed. it counts age 15-64 as employment age and says everyone between those ages is either employed or unemployed.

I hope you can see the flaw in that logic.
If you use these statistics you can see that we have about 130 million 'full time' employees that support about 200 million people that either don't work or work part time. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ees-in-the-us/ Whenever there is a discussion on universal health care I want to know who we are paying for. I also do not like simple solutions like your example of $230 out a month would translate to only $150/month - because nothing works that way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
You seem to be misunderstanding.

The Workforce Initiative Grant(cant remember the full name of it) only goes to people who actually take the courses that lead to certain fields. you cant just "go to college for the wrong reasons" as you say.

And you have to finish the courses otherwise you have to pay the money back in some cases.

Honestly, im not trying to degrade you, but instead of "picking a side" , you should research these issues.

For all your argument of Trump pledges and changes, Obama was already doing many of these things and it seems you were so busy being against him, that you forgot what you were actually for.
How do you get people that actually take the courses and then get jobs? Don't you have to advance them cash up front to get them to take those courses? How do you get your money back when they drop out of society?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
Our wage and economic system isnt as simple as you claim.

Let me explain it to you this way.

No one will work for 0 dollars an hour and no employer can stay in business paying 100 dollars an hour. There is an equilibrium and that is what the minimum wage is.

yes, there is competition for employees and that raises wages, but that does not have anything to do with the current minimum wage or weather raising it hurts a business.

by the way, the first thing companies do with wage increases is quality control, employees are actually the last thing to go in any cost cutting measures not matter what the reason is for the cost cutting.
The minimum wage is a complicated story and it has both good and bad aspects: https://econofact.org/do-minimum-wages-really-kill-jobs. Right now many of the restaurants are automating and it is hard to see how far this push will go. I simply argue that money is money and employers will do what is necessary to contain cost.
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Old 07-22-2018, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Pine Grove,AL
23,216 posts, read 11,473,657 times
Reputation: 4301
Quote:
Originally Posted by fisheye View Post
If you use these statistics you can see that we have about 130 million 'full time' employees that support about 200 million people that either don't work or work part time. https://www.statista.com/statistics/...ees-in-the-us/ Whenever there is a discussion on universal health care I want to know who we are paying for. I also do not like simple solutions like your example of $230 out a month would translate to only $150/month - because nothing works that way.
there are only 320 million people total in this country, while it is true that newborns and the elderly indeed need healthcare, to count them as "unemployed" in this context is absurd.

As for your statement about simple solutions, I agree, nothing is that simple. However, you arent just saying that, you are completely ignoring a possible solution simply because you do not understand.




Quote:
How do you get people that actually take the courses and then get jobs? Don't you have to advance them cash up front to get them to take those courses? How do you get your money back when they drop out of society?


Im guessing by your response that you either did not attend college, or it has been so long that you have forgotten the process/process changed.

You do not just walk up to a government office, ask for money, get it and walk away. You fill out paper work that includes your SSN same as you would with a bank loan.

If you do not finish the course, you repay the government over a set period of time.


Quote:
The minimum wage is a complicated story and it has both good and bad aspects: https://econofact.org/do-minimum-wages-really-kill-jobs. Right now many of the restaurants are automating and it is hard to see how far this push will go. I simply argue that money is money and employers will do what is necessary to contain cost.
Restaurants are automating the cash registers, not the person making the burgers. No one at McDonald's or Burger King only works the cash register. That hasnt been true for going on 10 years.
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Old 07-22-2018, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Swiftwater, PA
14,271 posts, read 11,624,769 times
Reputation: 10671
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
there are only 320 million people total in this country, while it is true that newborns and the elderly indeed need healthcare, to count them as "unemployed" in this context is absurd.

As for your statement about simple solutions, I agree, nothing is that simple. However, you arent just saying that, you are completely ignoring a possible solution simply because you do not understand.
How many Senators and Congressmen read the full Obamacare text before they signed? Many did not know what they were signing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
Im guessing by your response that you either did not attend college, or it has been so long that you have forgotten the process/process changed.

You do not just walk up to a government office, ask for money, get it and walk away. You fill out paper work that includes your SSN same as you would with a bank loan.

If you do not finish the course, you repay the government over a set period of time.
I did go to college; but it was a long time ago. I also understand that student loans are not forgiving and the debt will follow you through life. That still does not mean that everybody will get and education that leads to a promising vocation. Heck; how many people know what promising vocations will be left in the next ten years?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
Restaurants are automating the cash registers, not the person making the burgers. No one at McDonald's or Burger King only works the cash register. That hasnt been true for going on 10 years.
It's coming: https://www.theverge.com/2018/3/8/17...obotics-flippy. Just a little more time to iron out the kinks.
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Old 07-22-2018, 04:38 PM
 
44,341 posts, read 17,707,490 times
Reputation: 18664
I can almost guarantee you the Democrat party will not want to talk about "free" health care in 2020.

The outright failure of Obamacare has ruined that for them for at least the next generation.
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