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Old 07-24-2018, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Florida
22,120 posts, read 9,405,113 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dockside View Post
Who will beat Trump? Seriously? Obama and the DNC didn't groom anyone to the point where the MSM is trying to talk up Joe Biden as the second coming. Democrats that are interested have to sound whackier than Bernie to attract the base and are guaranteed to alienate independents and all Republicans. I predict Trump wins in a landslide.
Both Obama and Bill Clinton emerged as front runners late in the game. And they both won the electoral college and popular vote.

They were not "groomed."

I'm not worried.
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:06 PM
 
15,320 posts, read 7,834,593 times
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Forgot to mention on foreign policy, if these tariffs stay, they could easily run on removing them so that they can save American businesses money and the consumers.

Had a meeting at work recently with quite a few of our clients/vendors about prices raising on products/supplies/equipment due to the tariffs.
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:09 PM
 
473 posts, read 212,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
New stuff - I think they will bring a more positive, inclusive sort of message - one of togetherness, even with people who were wary about HRC and who voted for Trump.
I really don't think Democrats are capable of that. Not after watching their hysteria for the last 1.5 years or so.
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:15 PM
 
18,069 posts, read 11,073,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
I really don't think Democrats are capable of that. Not after watching their hysteria for the last 1.5 years or so.
I'm not. I hate Trump supporters so I'll leave that to others to be inclusive. I would rather see the country regionalize and for blue states to pull away economically from red states. I'm tired of carrying them and this farmer welfare is the final straw.
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:16 PM
 
15,320 posts, read 7,834,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacove View Post
Sorry, NO. I do not want to cater to the Rust Belt and would rather regionalize the country. Democrats need to embrace state's rights wherever possible. Elect Democrats that support state's rights to work toward the independence of blue states. A country that caters to the failing Rust Belt is a country doomed to failure. These people think education is elitist. These people are waiting for coal to come back. These people are voting to increase pollution. These people want to make abortion illegal so they are forced to support a massive increase in desperately poor mothers and babies. These people want to end health coverage for people with pre-existing conditions. These people think tariffs are the answer to every question. These people believe our allies are our enemies and dictators are our friends. We should never ever ever cater to these people.

Democrats need to simply focus on the success of blue states, hire from blue states, support blue candidates in blue states and ignore the demise of red states. They cannot be helped and honestly, after what we've seen the last 18 months, do we even want to help them? End farm subsidies. Tell them there are too many farmers and to get actual jobs. They are taking our tax dollars and we are paying them NOT to grow crops. It's ridiculous.

I hope we get a Democratic president next. I hope someone like Howard Schultz wins. But I view it as a short term solution and the long term solution is to regionalize this country so we can once again work toward our own success without dealing with parts of the country we will never ever ever agree with. And I think red states would agree to this as well.
On this - I live in the Rust Belt and you do need it to win a Democratic victory in the state's I mentioned above. However, one must note that the Rust Belt is not typically "red" like the right likes to believe. In Ohio we have 5 major urban areas that all have different "flavors" so to speak. In Ohio - a large amount of the electorate stayed home - in my area (NW OH) - it is heavily Democratic but a lot of left leaning individuals did not like Hillary Clinton so just didn't vote - the DNC and Democratic candidates WILL have to reach out to pull these voters back into the mix if they want to win.

I am also black - and not sure what they said on cable news about black Rust Belt state voters - but I know for a FACT that many black voters in Detroit area did not go vote at all because they felt that Hillary Clinton brushed them aside, unlike Obama before her and unlike her husband and even Gore and Kerry. She did not pay people to work on her campaigns in regular/temporary jobs - there are a lot of black people in many areas of the country who actually count on working for the DNC during election years and they felt it was a slap in the face for her not to do this. She also did not pay to advertise much on black media outlets - which also may seem sheisty but is something that black media outlets count on - candidates coming to ask them for their vote and spending their money showing that they support black neighborhoods and individuals. Because of her ignoring black voters - black voters ignored her. The next Democratic candidates need to focus on their base and do what Obama, Kerry, Gore, and Bill Clinton did - engage black voters (especially black women who vote in VERY large numbers and who can and will get out and mobilize the community).
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:21 PM
 
15,320 posts, read 7,834,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terr View Post
I really don't think Democrats are capable of that. Not after watching their hysteria for the last 1.5 years or so.
I do because as noted, I know a lot of Democrats. I think everything we see on media (TV and internet) is just polarization and if a candidate with the charisma similar to Obama runs then this is very capable.

I mentioned Sherrod Brown in Ohio, I do think he could put out this message. I also think Cory Booker can do it - he is pretty positive. The others people speak about, not so much, but there are younger candidates who can do this and I do believe (and hope) there will be a surprise candidate to rise, similar to Obama in 2007/2008.

Actually I even like Joe Kennedy III and his attitude/aura. But he has the whole Kennedy nostalgia thing going for him - which can be positive or negative - but he would actually be great in giving uplifting, unifying speeches that people will actually believe or buy into, unlike when Trump does it, we all know he is BSing since he only cares about his base and no one else's views/opinions.

Just being "together" again as Americans - getting that message across, would be a great thing to do.
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:22 PM
 
18,069 posts, read 11,073,059 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
On this - I live in the Rust Belt and you do need it to win a Democratic victory in the state's I mentioned above. However, one must note that the Rust Belt is not typically "red" like the right likes to believe. In Ohio we have 5 major urban areas that all have different "flavors" so to speak. In Ohio - a large amount of the electorate stayed home - in my area (NW OH) - it is heavily Democratic but a lot of left leaning individuals did not like Hillary Clinton so just didn't vote - the DNC and Democratic candidates WILL have to reach out to pull these voters back into the mix if they want to win.

I am also black - and not sure what they said on cable news about black Rust Belt state voters - but I know for a FACT that many black voters in Detroit area did not go vote at all because they felt that Hillary Clinton brushed them aside, unlike Obama before her and unlike her husband and even Gore and Kerry. She did not pay people to work on her campaigns in regular/temporary jobs - there are a lot of black people in many areas of the country who actually count on working for the DNC during election years and they felt it was a slap in the face for her not to do this. She also did not pay to advertise much on black media outlets - which also may seem sheisty but is something that black media outlets count on - candidates coming to ask them for their vote and spending their money showing that they support black neighborhoods and individuals. Because of her ignoring black voters - black voters ignored her. The next Democratic candidates need to focus on their base and do what Obama, Kerry, Gore, and Bill Clinton did - engage black voters (especially black women who vote in VERY large numbers and who can and will get out and mobilize the community).
So in view of that, do blacks feel Republicans are better for them? Because if they do, they should vote for Republicans. If they think Republicans will deliver better policy for them, so be it. I feel the same way about Hispanics. If they voted for Trump, then they deserve what is happening. Just like Trump supporters in Trump country complaining about tariffs. Too bad, that's what they voted for. So while I don't excuse Hillary for not paying attention to them, a part of me thinks if they are treated the way Republicans typically treat blacks, how can they complain? Their lack of voting is the same as voting. Democrats elected the first black president and have worked hard to promote and protect civil rights. Maybe blacks don't care about that.
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:25 PM
 
15,320 posts, read 7,834,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharks With Lasers View Post
I am very thankful that this type of thinking is a minority amongst liberals.

I live in Michigan, which is one of those "Rust Belt" states. Like in Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Iowa, there are many different types of people here. We're not a monolith of tariff loving "deplorables" who support your Trumpist mischaracterization of our population. There are some people here who think that way, and they'll vote for Trump anyway. There are also people who mostly agree with your agenda - minus the coastal elitism, and are going to vote against Trump anyhow. Paying attention to the "Rust Belt" is not catering to your "basket of deplorables" - it's engaging the middle who don't like Trump, but reluctantly either voted for him or stayed home because Hillary Clinton thought much like you.

That's not a hard lesson to learn.
I agree with this on the Rustbelt. Whoever runs against Trump with the Dems, I will vote for them. There are a lot of us here in the Rust Belt and I agree that Seacove - you elicited the elitism that many of us more left leaning persons in the middle of the country cannot stand about you west coast liberals in particular (I personally think they are the worse lol).

Main difference between Democrats and left leaning independents in the Midwest and the East and West coast liberals is that we have more common sense and don't get so polarized about things that are not important (like plastic straws lol - more important things to worry about). We also are not as emotional as you all are about other issues that are not all that important.
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Old 07-24-2018, 05:32 PM
 
15,320 posts, read 7,834,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seacove View Post
So in view of that, do blacks feel Republicans are better for them? Because if they do, they should vote for Republicans. If they think Republicans will deliver better policy for them, so be it. I feel the same way about Hispanics. If they voted for Trump, then they deserve what is happening. Just like Trump supporters in Trump country complaining about tariffs. Too bad, that's what they voted for. So while I don't excuse Hillary for not paying attention to them, a part of me thinks if they are treated the way Republicans typically treat blacks, how can they complain? Their lack of voting is the same as voting. Democrats elected the first black president and have worked hard to promote and protect civil rights. Maybe blacks don't care about that.
I don't know what all black people feel.

However, I know people in Detroit and I listen to black talk radio in Detroit and I know elected officials and political types in metro Detroit - they all didn't like that Hillary Clinton sheisted them out of jobs and advertising dollars and had the gall to think that they'd just go support her just because she is a Democrat.

I'll also note, I am an independent and contrary to what most white conservatives and liberals think of black voters - we are not die hard liberals and we do have a lot of conservative leans. However, we also don't usually trust either party. I know I personally vote for the one that I don't feel is the worse lol. Hillary Clinton for me was better than Trump, so I did vote for her but other black voters felt they both were "worse" and like white voters in the Midwest felt that they didn't have a choice.

That feeling in Detroit in particular coupled with the fact that she barely came to Detroit to encourage voters to go out and vote for her meant they didn't support her and I actually heard people say "f*ck" her. Black talk radio spoke a lot about the fact that her campaign was not hiring people for paid jobs - that they wanted us to volunteer to do jobs people were paid for by Obama in 2008 and 2012. Also that the stations - who heavily support black organizations/community events - did not have much of any advertisement dollars spent at their stations. Interestingly, I heard more Ben Carson and Trump commercials on black radio stations than Dems - none for Hillary Clinton at all. The Carson and Trump commercials were funny - which was discussed - but many felt it was a slap in the fact or biting the hands that feed you in regards to the blatant way that Hillary ignored black voters. You ignore us and a large amount of us will ignore you.

I do think people have learned a lesson in regards to Trump but honestly all the stuff going on hasn't really been an issue for black people - many black people feel white liberals focus more on gays/lesbians and their rights than ours and that white liberals cannot be trusted today - that mistrust has always been there - but it was really there for Hillary Clinton considering her and her husband's past in being involved in locking up a substantial number of black people and calling black men "super predators." The conservative commercials made sure to re-hash those old comments and they became huge topics in black media and that made black men in particular not want to vote for her.

ETA: I'll also note that you should listen to your party supporters - black people by and large do support the Democratic party and especially black Democratic candidates. However Hillary Clinton didn't have a recent, good track record in black America and had too many things that could be and were exploited by both conservative and black media outlets. As noted above - black people and voters are not like many whites seem to believe we are. We discuss a lot of things from a variety of angles, especially items you mentioned toward the end of your post. However, the way you framed it, I'll be honest, it makes it seem like you believe that white Democrats had some sort of huge, benevolent hand in "saving" black people. Black Americans by and large, especially those of us who actually keep up with politics and who are educated (we are a growing demographic - educated black people) we know about black American history and we know that whites, neither liberals nor conservatives were or are benevolent towards us. We always have been the people to demand rights and lobby and force the tide - so we don't see you as the saviors you may see yourselves as. I don't think Democrats did anything for me. Black Americans "did" for me and got me my rights and I am grateful only to them. A substantial amount of black people have the same feeling I do on the subject and we actually really despise the "white savior complex" of white liberals. I've joked and laughed with many black elected officials who are Democrats about this very thing lol.
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Old 07-24-2018, 06:14 PM
 
18,069 posts, read 11,073,059 times
Reputation: 9419
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
I agree with this on the Rustbelt. Whoever runs against Trump with the Dems, I will vote for them. There are a lot of us here in the Rust Belt and I agree that Seacove - you elicited the elitism that many of us more left leaning persons in the middle of the country cannot stand about you west coast liberals in particular (I personally think they are the worse lol).

Main difference between Democrats and left leaning independents in the Midwest and the East and West coast liberals is that we have more common sense and don't get so polarized about things that are not important (like plastic straws lol - more important things to worry about). We also are not as emotional as you all are about other issues that are not all that important.
If you lived near Puget Sound, with whales and sea otters, maybe it would be different. Seattle didn't tell the rest of the country not pollute, they can pollute their areas all day long. Call that elitist if it feels right but people in the west are tired of making an issue about the environment. It's just easier to say "fine, pollute your area and leave ours alone". To me, that sounds extremely reasonable.

https://www.afar.com/places/puget-so...ldlife-seattle

Buzz's Marine Life of Puget Sound: Marine Mammals of Puget Sound

https://thewhaletrail.org/event/2015...pdate/img_0239

What we know without a doubt is if Republicans controlled Seattle, Puget Sound would be destroyed in weeks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post

ETA: I'll also note that you should listen to your party supporters - black people by and large do support the Democratic party and especially black Democratic candidates. However Hillary Clinton didn't have a recent, good track record in black America and had too many things that could be and were exploited by both conservative and black media outlets. As noted above - black people and voters are not like many whites seem to believe we are. We discuss a lot of things from a variety of angles, especially items you mentioned toward the end of your post. However, the way you framed it, I'll be honest, it makes it seem like you believe that white Democrats had some sort of huge, benevolent hand in "saving" black people. Black Americans by and large, especially those of us who actually keep up with politics and who are educated (we are a growing demographic - educated black people) we know about black American history and we know that whites, neither liberals nor conservatives were or are benevolent towards us. We always have been the people to demand rights and lobby and force the tide - so we don't see you as the saviors you may see yourselves as. I don't think Democrats did anything for me. Black Americans "did" for me and got me my rights and I am grateful only to them. A substantial amount of black people have the same feeling I do on the subject and we actually really despise the "white savior complex" of white liberals. I've joked and laughed with many black elected officials who are Democrats about this very thing lol.
This is very educational for me. I won't elaborate but it's good to know. I could say, for example, it was Democrats that fought to save the auto industry in Michigan and the Rust Belt but it is what it is. This does further confirm my thoughts that it's best if the West regionalizes away, does not hire from red states and focuses on the success of their own economy.

Last edited by Seacove; 07-24-2018 at 06:24 PM..
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