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I don't believe there is any real resolution to the conflict. Niether side is willing to compromise on the main points of disagreement. Isreal believes it has a right to thier country, and the radical elements of the palestinians believe they are supposed to destroy the jews. I am not sure you reconcile that. As far as the presidential nominees are concerned, it all depends on what you believe is the right course of action. If you believe you can sit down and negotiate a peace between mortal enemies then you would probably be more for Obama. If you believe that an allied democracy in that region is more important than McCain is your guy.
I personally believe that it is naive and historically ignorant to believe that a peace can be negotiated. No conflict with issues such as these has been peacefully settled with maybe the exception being the cold war. And even that at times was fought through proxy war. I don't think Hamas is or can ever be a legitimate partner in the peace process, and until the palestinians forcefully reject the radical elements of thier society, peace will never occur, and Isreal will have the right to defend her self through what ever means necessary.
While many grievences against the State of Isreal may be legitimate, sometimes people must accept the reality of the situation, and have the scerenity to move past the things that can not be changed. The same goes for the Isrealis. Once you can accept those things as they are, true change and colaborative work can be done to achieve great things.
Until the arab world accepts, and acknowledges the State of Isreal's basic right to exist, no real progress can be achieved.
I don't believe there is any real resolution to the conflict. Niether side is willing to compromise on the main points of disagreement. Isreal believes it has a right to thier country, and the radical elements of the palestinians believe they are supposed to destroy the jews. I am not sure you reconcile that. As far as the presidential nominees are concerned, it all depends on what you believe is the right course of action. If you believe you can sit down and negotiate a peace between mortal enemies then you would probably be more for Obama. If you believe that an allied democracy in that region is more important than McCain is your guy.
I personally believe that it is naive and historically ignorant to believe that a peace can be negotiated. No conflict with issues such as these has been peacefully settled with maybe the exception being the cold war. And even that at times was fought through proxy war. I don't think Hamas is or can ever be a legitimate partner in the peace process, and until the palestinians forcefully reject the radical elements of thier society, peace will never occur, and Isreal will have the right to defend her self through what ever means necessary.
While many grievences against the State of Isreal may be legitimate, sometimes people must accept the reality of the situation, and have the scerenity to move past the things that can not be changed. The same goes for the Isrealis. Once you can accept those things as they are, true change and colaborative work can be done to achieve great things.
Until the arab world accepts, and acknowledges the State of Isreal's basic right to exist, no real progress can be achieved.
I agree. I don't think there is going to be peace.
On a simplistic level, the fundamentalist christian/neocon influence on our policy in the Middle East has resulted in the public discourse in the U.S. treating the Israel/Arab issue as primarily a religious dispute, rather than the existential, territorial, right to exist conflict that it is. .
Religion started this, and probably still has a lot to do with it. You are right that we need to take a fresh look at things there, preferably in context of our overall foreign policy for the future (as TnHillTopper alluded to).
I agree. I don't think there is going to be peace.
It truly is a shame for not only arabs and jews, but humanity as a whole. I think if both sides could come together under some understanding and reconcile some issues. It would be a fantastic developement for liberty across the wider region.
Too many power hungary interests involved that benifit from the chaos created. A solution is unprofitable for them.
I agree, outside of the few virulent and outright despicable posts, most have been well measured and thoughtful which is a nice change when discussing this most difficult issue.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzco
On a simplistic level, the fundamentalist christian/neocon influence on our policy in the Middle East has resulted in the public discourse in the U.S. treating the Israel/Arab issue as primarily a religious dispute, rather than the existential, territorial, right to exist conflict that it is. It does not have its roots in Muslim terrorism, and the conflation with the issues of the war on terror has only created more tension and danger.
While McCain is touted as having more experience in foreign policy than Obama, which very well may be true just simply due to his many many years on earth, his understanding of the deep roots and broader implications is pretty sad. While Obama most definitely lacks experience, I believe he is willing to closer examine this issue in a greater context. This issue is probably the one area I have to give credit to Obama on in his foreign policy position. My fears is that his lack of experience will leave him open to bullying by both hawkish types here and abroad. I guess this is where Biden would come in to play his role.
Nothing will happen until Hamas publicly recinds part of their core charter, until then discussions are really quite useless (except for public relations manipulation):
Article Thirteen:
Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
Article Thirty-Two:
World Zionism, together with imperialistic powers, try through a studied plan and an intelligent strategy to remove one Arab state after another from the circle of struggle against Zionism, in order to have it finally face the Palestinian people only. Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of the struggle, through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. They are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements and to bring them outside the circle of struggle.
The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.
Leaving the circle of struggle with Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who does that. "for whoso shall turn his back unto them on that day, unless he turneth aside to fight, or retreateth to another party of the faithful, shall draw on himself the indignation of Allah, and his abode shall be hell; an ill journey shall it be thither." (The Spoils - verse 16). There is no way out except by concentrating all powers and energies to face this Nazi, vicious Tatar invasion. The alternative is loss of one's country, the dispersion of citizens, the spread of vice on earth and the destruction of religious values. Let every person know that he is responsible before Allah, for "the doer of the slightest good deed is rewarded in like, and the does of the slightest evil deed is also rewarded in like."
The Islamic Resistance Movement consider itself to be the spearhead of the circle of struggle with world Zionism and a step on the road. The Movement adds its efforts to the efforts of all those who are active in the Palestinian arena. Arab and Islamic Peoples should augment by further steps on their part; Islamic groupings all over the Arab world should also do the same, since all of these are the best-equipped for the future role in the fight with the warmongering Jews.
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."
Nothing will happen until Hamas publicly recinds part of their core charter, until then discussions are really quite useless (except for public relations manipulation):
Good luck with having them state publicly, "hey, we were just kidding, we really want to co-exist and swap stories...can't you take a joke?"
But if you can get them to do it, I guess folks can sit at the table.
Not sure how this effects which candidate will be best on this issue but it is a classic example of "The US and Israel (as one) demand"...
Not sure how this effects which candidate will be best on this issue but it is a classic example of "The US and Israel (as one) demand"...
Having to do with pre-conditions in negotiations, one of the points discussed specifically in the debate.
If Hamas has these among their core items in their charter, the US has little to gain in brokering a negotiation.
Only a gradual disengagement would be possible, no matter who wins office, and this assumes you want to chance/be indifferent to the Russian leadership not also having a vested interest in the evolutions in the Middle East.
This is an issue near and dear to my heart and I also think that having peace in that area can only lead to good things for the Middle East and the rest of the world. I do believe that Obama would be better suited to move along a peace treaty, but what about McCain? What do you think he can do?
As long as Israel exists there will never be an extended period of peace. It's not something Obama or McCain can fix.
Having to do with pre-conditions in negotiations, one of the points discussed specifically in the debate.
If Hamas has these among their core items in their charter, the US has little to gain in brokering a negotiation.
Only a gradual disengagement would be possible, no matter who wins office, and this assumes you want to chance/be indifferent to the Russian leadership not also having a vested interest in the evolutions in the Middle East.
Two these two specific points, most notably on pre-conditions. One of the other pre-conditions that isn't being met is the right of return issue. After the creation of the state of Israel, thousands of Palestinian Arabs and Christians were forced out of their land. Israel's failure to acknowledge their pre-condition of right of return is just one more aspect in a very deep issue.
What we are saying here to Hamas is that they have to publicly acknowledge Israel's right to exist, something that a majority of Palestinian people do, even if not all of their leadership does. Yet we never press Israel on the right of return issue, as you say, openly and publicly.
So again, my point here from the US perspective of this is that the United States assumes one side 100% without ever addressing the other sides concerns in any meaningful manner. I would ask to show me how many times the United States has voted against Israel in the UN as opposed to how many times it has vetoed resolutions against Israel.
"hypocrisy is the practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or moral values that one does not hold or possess."
We entered into war with Iraq over a single UN resolution as our justification, yet I ask, what nation has the most UN resolution violations? Why are they not even being spoken about in our political dialog, let alone voted on in an objective manner?
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