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Old 11-12-2008, 11:23 PM
 
2,180 posts, read 3,192,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Was that yes or no?
That was you skipping the points you have no rebuttal to, in the name of pursuing your question.
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Old 11-12-2008, 11:47 PM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
29,011 posts, read 19,061,438 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jps-teacher View Post
The other thing you seem to be missing is this:

Morals and values are not for when times are easy. Morals and values are for when times are tough.

If, because our civilians were attacked, our response is to break our own laws, to violate our own standards, in the name of "the gloves came off," then we are morally bankrupt, too.

The lawyers crying foul are the former prosecutors from the military tribunals, including the Chief Prosecutor!

This is a sign that what we have been doing in Guantanamo is wrong. This is a sign that the direction our military 'justice' system is heading in is diametrically opposed to the direction that our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and Uniform Code of Military Justice would have them go.

You talk about "combatants captured on the battlefield," but that's the problem. Many of these people were:
1) Not combatants,
2) Not on the battlefield,
and
3) Not even captured by us.

Our military has been trying to fix these cases. They've tried to have evidence from torture admitted. They've withheld exculpatory evidence.

This is all incredibly bogus.



I got a new word for you, "allegedly". Defense lawyers suppose all sorts of misconduct. That's what they get paid to do.

The point you're missing here is lawyers suck and WTH do you know about the UCMJ? And why would it apply to these people in any case?

"Morals and values are not for when times are easy. Morals and values are for when times are tough."

I totally agree. My number one moral obligation is to protect the ones I love, period. If that makes me a war criminal in your eyes, so be it. It is always the ones on the sidelines doing all the b*tchin' anyway. It is a different situation when you personally are responsible for the safety of others. Biden, Clinton and McCain all approved of the Iraq invasion for the same reason; to prevent another, possibly worse attack on US civilians. If you don't get the big picture of Islamic terrorism and their end game (forcibly converting the world to Islam and overthrowing all the non-Islamic governments) after all they've done to Americans over the past thirty years, nothing I could say at this point would make any sense to you. It's a gut-check issue. For me, it is simple. I have people that I'm responsible for protecting. I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. My duty is to them and it is absolute. link
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:14 AM
 
2,180 posts, read 3,192,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
I got a new word for you, "allegedly". Defense lawyers suppose all sorts of misconduct. That's what they get paid to do.
WTF?

Let me try this again, since you are not responding to what I wrote.

The lawyers crying foul are the former prosecutors from the military tribunals, including the Chief Prosecutor!

THE PROSECUTORS. Not the defense lawyers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
The point you're missing here is lawyers suck and WTH do you know about the UCMJ? And why would it apply to these people in any case?
It has to do with conduct of trials and how the prosecution is handled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
"Morals and values are not for when times are easy. Morals and values are for when times are tough."

I have people that I'm responsible for protecting. I don't care what the rest of the world thinks. My duty is to them and it is absolute. link
The problem is that your position fails in your duty to them.

Gut check is right.

Punishing people and imprisoning people and torturing people whom our own government has admitted had no enmity towards the United States is not protecting the people you are responsible for. It is putting them at greater risk.
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Old 11-13-2008, 12:19 AM
 
2,180 posts, read 3,192,582 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
I got a new word for you, "allegedly". Defense lawyers suppose all sorts of misconduct. That's what they get paid to do.

From Chief Prosecutor To Critic at Guantanamo

Confessions of a former Guantánamo prosecutor | Salon News

You can also look up Air Force Maj. John Carr and Air Force Maj. Robert Preston.

Step 5: But when they are cleared of being a threat to the U.S., at least then they will be released. Right?

Here's how it looks from Al Jazeera's perspective:
Al Jazeera English - Americas - Uighurs' Guantanamo release blocked

But they're biased, right? So, how about a different look or two? So, here's Fox News:
FOXNews.com - Court Blocks Release of Chinese Detainees at Guantanamo - Politics | Republican Party | Democratic Party | Political Spectrum

This is a squib from Newsweek, with related stories below it:
Newsweek - National News, World News, Health, Technology, Entertainment and more... | Newsweek.com (http://www.newsweek.com/related.aspx?subject=Guantanamo+Bay - broken link)
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:30 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
29,011 posts, read 19,061,438 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magellan View Post
Foreign combatants? Of the 250 detainees still in Guantanamo Bay, do you know where they came from? Only a few are linked to 9/11. I'm not saying just let them go. Put them up for trial if there is such clear evidence against them.

And where did you find a quote that Biden thinks I'm wrong?

Looks to me like he wants Gitmo closed:

biden guantanamo bay - Google Search

He proposed to change "or" to "and" and it now excludes US citizens which doesn't apply to my assertion. Closing Gitmo doesn't change the definition of unlawful enemy combatant or extend to them the rights enjoyed by US citizens. This is the law and Biden's proposed change.


"The term 'unlawful enemy combatant' means —
(i) a person who has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al-Qaida, or associated forces); or (ii) a person who, before, on, or after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, has been determined to be an unlawful enemy combatant by a Combatant Status Review Tribunal or another competent tribunal established under the authority of the President or the Secretary of Defense."
Military Commissions Act of 2006 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SEC. 201. MODIFICATION OF DEFINITION OF `UNLAWFUL ENEMY COMBATANT' FOR PURPOSES OF MILITARY COMMISSIONS.

  • Section 948a(1)(A) of title 10, United States Code, is amended--
    • (1) in the matter preceding clause (i), by striking `means'; and
    • (2) by striking clauses (i) and (ii) and inserting the following:
      • `(i) means a person who is not a lawful enemy combatant and who--
        • `(I) has engaged in hostilities against the United States; or
        • `(II) has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States (other than hostilities engaged in as a lawful enemy combatant); and
      • `(ii) does not include any person who is--
        • `(I) a citizen of the United States or legally admitted to the United States; and
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:41 AM
 
2,256 posts, read 2,968,754 times
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Guantanamo is an ugly reminder to the rest of the world that our American sense of moral superiority is a steaming pile of ****.
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:45 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
29,011 posts, read 19,061,438 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tekka-maki View Post
One can only hope I guess...


Replace Left with Right dyslexic one and it sounds like a wiki for Fox News and the Bush regime of the last 8. Good try at humor though.


Got nothing Temperence?

Disappointing.
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Old 11-13-2008, 01:50 AM
 
27,903 posts, read 33,489,197 times
Reputation: 4016
Hubris and high rhetoric. Nothing more than sound bites and one liners.
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:00 AM
 
21,044 posts, read 19,041,141 times
Reputation: 5929
Quote:
Originally Posted by kidicarus89 View Post
Guantanamo is an ugly reminder to the rest of the world that our American sense of moral superiority is a steaming pile of ****.
Yes, and isn't it nice that Obama will get credit for getting rid of it, earning more goodwill from other countries who may now start admiring us and trusting us, helping us, siding with us (maybe even WILLINGLY).
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Old 11-13-2008, 02:24 AM
 
Location: Unperson Everyman Land
29,011 posts, read 19,061,438 times
Reputation: 7774
Quote:
Originally Posted by tekka-maki View Post
Why would get-mo be closed before these folks are tried or released to begin with. You do know that 500+ have already been released right?

You presuppose they are terrorists, and they countries don't want some simply for the fact that they are terrorists. That's a double negative, fallacy fallacy. Congrats, ignorance is bliss.


"If you and your ilk simply read once in a while, then you would understand the issues better."


Yes Moonbeam, reading is fundamental!

"Under the plan being crafted inside Obama's camp, some detainees would be released and others would be charged in U.S. courts, where they would receive constitutional rights and open trials. But, underscoring the difficult decisions Obama must make to fulfill his pledge of shutting down Guantanamo, the plan could require the creation of a new legal system to handle the classified information inherent in some of the most sensitive cases."

Obama plans US terror trials to replace Guantanamo - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081110/ap_on_go_pr_wh/obama_guantanamo - broken link)


"Barack Obama will move swiftly to close Guantanamo Bay as soon as he takes office, his aides said yesterday, in a clear and early sign of how determined he is to break with President Bush.
Mr Obama is planning to ship dozens of terrorist suspects from the camp to face criminal trial in the US. It is a controversial move but one that demonstrates how abruptly he plans to change Washington in terms of policy, personnel and tone the moment he enters the Oval Office."

Barack Obama plans quick transfer of Guantanamo Bay suspects to US - Times Online
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