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Unread 11-20-2008, 06:20 PM
 
Location: The Coldest Place
994 posts, read 864,943 times
Reputation: 199
Quote:
Originally Posted by idahogie View Post
I'm not sure what your point is. I said that sometimes civil disobediance including violence has been needed to achieve our goals. If conservatives had their way, the lower classes and those out of power would stay peaceful and obedient at all times. So it's in a conservative's interest to condemn any form of disobedience. I don't trust our rulers that much.
I am sure that some, who are so locked into one view only about this issue, didn't even listen to the interview.

He made it clear that he and his girlfriend were NOT for hurting people and said that the main issue in the group had become just that.

Had they not blown themselves up that day, I suspect that the group would have fractured, just as SDS did earlier.

Lastly, the NYT totally manipulated sound bytes to present the image that many of these people can't get out of their minds.

And they scream about libs being controlled by media.
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Unread 11-20-2008, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Idaho Falls
5,032 posts, read 3,437,278 times
Reputation: 1474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guero View Post
I am sure that some, who are so locked into one view only about this issue, didn't even listen to the interview.

He made it clear that he and his girlfriend were NOT for hurting people and said that the main issue in the group had become just that.

Had they not blown themselves up that day, I suspect that the group would have fractured, just as SDS did earlier.

Lastly, the NYT totally manipulated sound bytes to present the image that many of these people can't get out of their minds.

And they scream about libs being controlled by media.
Good points, Guero (and "The Man" won't let me rep you!)

I'm not convinced about the townhouse bomb, one way or the other. Perhaps they did plan to use it to kill people. But Ayers does make clear that they quickly dropped that idea - if it ever had any favor - once the three members were killed. If they really intended to kill people, I'm not sure why the accidental detination would have changed their minds. They continued making bombs, and so were still subjecting themselves to the same risks. Why deviate from the original plan because of the accident? That makes me think that they never really intended to hurt or kill people.

And you're right. The wingers on this board are only able to comprehend the world in black and white. You're either fir us or agin us. Terrorist or Patriot. There's always an easy answer to any question. It's a fairly childish psychological state, actually. Luckily the grown-ups are now in charge.
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Unread 11-20-2008, 07:25 PM
LML
 
Location: Wisconsin
7,039 posts, read 4,840,105 times
Reputation: 4859
I've been suspicious of everything told us about these type of groups since what happened to Fred Hampton.

Last edited by LML; 11-20-2008 at 08:21 PM..
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Unread 11-20-2008, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Pa
18,170 posts, read 9,464,024 times
Reputation: 5437
Quote:
Originally Posted by RD5050 View Post
I would still listen to the interview. It may give you a better understanding of Ayers.

If you choose to hate Ayers, then you probably should also hate the millions of other Vietnam protesters, many who also committed acts of violence as part of their protest. Ayers actions may have been more extreme than many, but his reasoning for committing the actions was no different.

Unfortunately, that was how it was during the late 1960's and 70's. There was a DRAFT, and everyone was being forced to fight in a war that most of the country opposed.

Today, with the Iraq War, we have a completely volunteer military. We also have a lot of people riding around with "Support The Troops" bumper-stickers, knowing that they personally will never have to fight and die in Iraq. If we had a Draft today, you'd probably see a lot less Support The Troops stickers, and a heck of a lot more anti-war protesters.
I myself grew up in the 70's born in 1962. I am also a combat vet. His actions regardless of his reasoning are unacceptable. I don't believe that violent criminals should be allowed to live. I don't believe that rapists and pedofiles should be released into the public. In fact I strongly believe more than wordscan say that no torture is brutal enough punishment for them.
That said I do not even with all my training commits acts of domestic terrorism to make my point.. I don't risk the lives of innocent people to make my point. I will never build, plant, or detonate bombs to make my point. Ayers is no hero. He is a self rightious unrepentantscumbag. He may wear a different hat but he did what he did. No walk for him.
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Unread 11-20-2008, 09:13 PM
 
Location: San Diego
4,982 posts, read 3,869,273 times
Reputation: 2861
Quote:
Originally Posted by tinman01 View Post
I myself grew up in the 70's born in 1962. I am also a combat vet. His actions regardless of his reasoning are unacceptable. I don't believe that violent criminals should be allowed to live. I don't believe that rapists and pedofiles should be released into the public. In fact I strongly believe more than wordscan say that no torture is brutal enough punishment for them.
That said I do not even with all my training commits acts of domestic terrorism to make my point.. I don't risk the lives of innocent people to make my point. I will never build, plant, or detonate bombs to make my point. Ayers is no hero. He is a self rightious unrepentantscumbag. He may wear a different hat but he did what he did. No walk for him.
If you were born in 1962, then you were not drafted into military service, therefore you must have volunteered.

So I don't believe that you can relate to those that were drafted. Back then, they didn't have the choice to serve, like you did.

More than half the nation strongly opposed the Vietnam War, and thousands (if not millions) were actively protesting, some in very radical ways, such as Ayers.

I don't consider Ayers a hero. But I know that his reasons for doing what he did were shared by lots of other protesters at that same time.

Ayers stated that he never intended to hurt or kill anyone. He only intended to destroy government property to make a statement against the war.

Try listening to his interview with an open mind. You might get a better understanding of him, and realize he is not the evil man you make him out to be.
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Unread 11-20-2008, 09:27 PM
 
Location: Pa
18,170 posts, read 9,464,024 times
Reputation: 5437
Quote:
Originally Posted by RD5050 View Post
If you were born in 1962, then you were not drafted into military service, therefore you must have volunteered.

So I don't believe that you can relate to those that were drafted. Back then, they didn't have the choice to serve, like you did.

More than half the nation strongly opposed the Vietnam War, and thousands (if not millions) were actively protesting, some in very radical ways, such as Ayers.

I don't consider Ayers a hero. But I know that his reasons for doing what he did were shared by lots of other protesters at that same time.

Ayers stated that he never intended to hurt or kill anyone. He only intended to destroy government property to make a statement against the war.

Try listening to his interview with an open mind. You might get a better understanding of him, and realize he is not the evil man you make him out to be.
Sigh he never intended. He never meant to. Sounds about like what most criminals say doesn't it?
No I wasn't drafted I enlisted. I wasn't given a whole lot of choice where I served. I did not believe in going into somalia. Not our fight not our problem. Worse still not allowed to shoot back without permission. Not allowed to engage obvious militants. No armor support. I finshed my final hitch and got out.
My point being. Because he felt strongly against the war gave him no right to risk harming others to make a point. He has no moral high ground in this. What makes him any different than say the early Israeli's who were bombing buildings to make a point? The king David Hotel??? What makes him different than the KKK who bombed churches. The topic of his scorn? The methos is the same. By the way I feel those Kluckers got off way to easy. They should have been turned over to their victims.
I understand that now Ayers is doing what he feels are good deeds. That doesn't change what he did nor that he is unrepentant.
Those who protested and protested in a peaceful manner are the hero's. I consider ayers no better than any other terrorist who use bombs and hide their identities. Cowards.
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Unread 11-21-2008, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Over There
5,129 posts, read 2,672,024 times
Reputation: 1199
Quote:
Originally Posted by idahogie View Post
I just said that you should provide evidence because your opinion wasn't worth much to me. Don't get all bent out of shape over it. Just back up your statements. It's a good habit to get into, and you won't look like such an ideologue.
I don't have to back up an OPINION.

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Unread 11-21-2008, 02:40 PM
 
27,242 posts, read 9,650,632 times
Reputation: 6989
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcadca View Post
I don't have to back up an OPINION.

No, you don't. Unless you jump into a discussion and want your opinion to be taken seriously.
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Unread 11-21-2008, 07:36 PM
 
1,914 posts, read 1,862,565 times
Reputation: 1039
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guero View Post
I am sure that some, who are so locked into one view only about this issue, didn't even listen to the interview.

He made it clear that he and his girlfriend were NOT for hurting people and said that the main issue in the group had become just that.

Had they not blown themselves up that day, I suspect that the group would have fractured, just as SDS did earlier.

Lastly, the NYT totally manipulated sound bytes to present the image that many of these people can't get out of their minds.

And they scream about libs being controlled by media.
So why make a bomb? What are bombs intended for? Blowing up a toilet? Why make a nail bomb? What WERE the nails for? To screw up the paint job on a few cars? Do you REALLY believe that load of crap? Aren't there 10,000 other ways to make a point?

Ayers and his girlfriend only said what they did b/c they were too inept (what drugs were they on? Did they give the list?) to get what they wanted to done correctly. Now that they're old and grey and don't have it in them anymore... they back-peddle. The sympathy for those idiots is disgusting.
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Unread 11-22-2008, 06:39 AM
 
35,000 posts, read 20,839,305 times
Reputation: 6074
What difference does it make now? For all the right wing hysteria over Wm Ayers up to November 4 I see he's no longer a talking point. Cold as yesterday's mackerel. Since it looks as if he's not going to head up the Dept. of Indoctrination after all I move this thread be closed.
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